Best early planning board with a dagger??

[Roger]

Hi f2sunset,
OK, Do you really want to plane in < 11 knots of wind?
No narrow board (< 85 cm wide) that I know of will really get up
off the rockerline and plane on the wide but short planing surface
back under the footstraps like a wide shortboard.
The physics and hydrodynamics simply do not support this.
Longer/narrower planing surfaces produce significantly more drag, and
drag will keep you from planing.
The trick to very early planing is to pump both the board and the big long fin
to get the board up on top of the water and pre-planing along on the short
wide planing surfaces behind the rocker transition.
Is this pretty physical... you bet, but if you want to plane early, you have
no choice. After about 10.0 m2 there are no really low wind oriented sails.
The bigger sails are mostly multi cambered race sails (formula racing) that
are heavy, but have a huge range of use, but this really wide range of use
somewhat limits the amount of draft which has always been my key to very
early planing.
Light weight, huge draft rigs in the 8.5-9.5 range will get you going about as early
as it's possible.
The Phantoms etc are not wide shortboards, they are wider long boards.
But not wide enough, and with a very different rockerline.
Not the same as a Formula.....2001-2003 Start....Ultrasonic 147....Apollo.
Hope this helps,
Roger

[f2sunset]

Originally Posted by Roger

Hi f2sunset,
OK, Do you really want to plane in < 11 knots of wind?
No narrow board (< 85 cm wide) that I know of will really get up
off the rockerline and plane on the wide but short planing surface
back under the footstraps like a wide shortboard.
The physics and hydrodynamics simply do not support this.
Longer/narrower planing surfaces produce significantly more drag, and
drag will keep you from planing.
The trick to very early planing is to pump both the board and the big long fin
to get the board up on top of the water and pre-planing along on the short
wide planing surfaces behind the rocker transition.
Is this pretty physical... you bet, but if you want to plane early, you have
no choice. After about 10.0 m2 there are no really low wind oriented sails.
The bigger sails are mostly multi cambered race sails (formula racing) that
are heavy, but have a huge range of use, but this really wide range of use
somewhat limits the amount of draft which has always been my key to very
early planing.
Light weight, huge draft rigs in the 8.5-9.5 range will get you going about as early
as it's possible.
The Phantoms etc are not wide shortboards, they are wider long boards.
But not wide enough, and with a very different rockerline.
Not the same as a Formula.....2001-2003 Start....Ultrasonic 147....Apollo.
Hope this helps,
Roger

Thanks Roger. It seems I'll have to sail more on wide boards to get used to them as I like more my 69cm wide 130 lt for early planning. I also remember planning very early with a go 145 80 cm wide(older model). I have seen how ever tha Lorch birds that are narrower boards plane earlier than JP superlightwind and ultrasonic in tests and compensate the narrow body by the longer waterline(their claim). Has anyone tried one?The 149 lt is 74cm wide!

[Ken]

f2sunset,

While the Lorch Birds look like early planing boards (and I am sure they are), the Ultrasonic no doubt will plane earlier.

Comparing the small 149 Bird to the US 147. The US is 19 cm wider, .2 kg lighter and will carry a fin 10 cm longer. I agree with Roger, length is a "drag".

If you go to the two larger Birds, 164 & 179, they get wider 80cm and 88cm (Ultrasonic 93cm) but they get heavier and longer too. At some point, more volume (and weight) only hinders early planing, unless you are a heavy weight sailor.

If you like your 69 cm wide and 130 liters for early planing, you haven't really experienced early planing.

For an sailor in the 75 to 85 kg weight range, I would guess the US will plane earlier than any of the Birds.

For early planing on any board, good pumping skills is critical. If I was on my formula board and a 9.2 sail in a steady 8-10 knots (a few small white caps begin to appear), I would never plane if I didn't pump, but three good full body pumps (legs too against the fin) and the board will be moving at 16-20 knots of board speed within 5-10 seconds. I weigh 77 kg, I also have an 11.0 sail and with it, the same will happen in 1-2 knots less wind.

[f2sunset]

Hi Ken , thanks for the post. The only experience I have from wide boards is with a jp slalom 82cm . Planed very early and really fast but felt like I was in a rocket. Too fast compared to wind strength and always felt that the board would fly over water. I'm 72kg. I find narrower boards more comfortable and I also prefer the easy handling of my 7.0 twin cam , I had a 8.2 twin cam and sold it , it felt too big and not much difference in early planning. Where I sail most of the time the wind never gets over 12 knots. There are RS:X with 9.5 sails and lots of guys with formulas and wide slalom boards with sails >9. I really don't see much difference in early planning compared to them to go to such big gear and when the wind drops no one planes but still the RS:X go faster with dagger down while we are stuck on water. Check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52zc6...eature=related

Really light wind no white caps and when not planning still going really fast hooked in and front straps. Maybe the bat wings do the work providing a wide tail compared to overall width of the board. What about the bat wings on the phantom 295? Has the same tail width as 80cm wide boards.
No one has such boards here so no way I can test one.

[Ken]

f2sunset,

I understand your situation and since you only weigh 72 kg, you don't need the really big stuff.

Any longboard with a dagger will be faster in light winds than the wide boards, but once a wide board begins to plane, they blow by the longboards at all points of sail. I raced longboards with sails up to 10.6 meters for almost 20 years and then converted to formula. However, I rarely freesailed the longboard(s) because I had more fun on 130-150 liter slalom/freeride boards with sails up to 9.2 meters.

What you do depends on two things.

1. Your general conditions and what you want to achieve. If the winds are generally under 12 knots, do you want to maximize planing or do you just want to cruse around and plane when the wind goes over 10 knots?

2. Your skills at the moment and how much time you will spend windsurfing. If you sail often, then your skills will improve relatively fast and you will become accustomed to the higher speeds and will most likely want to maximize your planing time.

Wide boards and big sails feel awkward at first, but when you get comfortable and don't drop your sail very often, then cruising around on 9 meter sail on a wide board feels no different than a 7 meter on a 130 liter board.

[f2sunset]

Originally Posted by Ken

f2sunset,

I understand your situation and since you only weigh 72 kg, you don't need the really big stuff.

Any longboard with a dagger will be faster in light winds than the wide boards, but once a wide board begins to plane, they blow by the longboards at all points of sail. I raced longboards with sails up to 10.6 meters for almost 20 years and then converted to formula. However, I rarely freesailed the longboard(s) because I had more fun on 130-150 liter slalom/freeride boards with sails up to 9.2 meters.

What you do depends on two things.

1. Your general conditions and what you want to achieve. If the winds are generally under 12 knots, do you want to maximize planing or do you just want to cruse around and plane when the wind goes over 10 knots?

2. Your skills at the moment and how much time you will spend windsurfing. If you sail often, then your skills will improve relatively fast and you will become accustomed to the higher speeds and will most likely want to maximize your planing time.

Wide boards and big sails feel awkward at first, but when you get comfortable and don't drop your sail very often, then cruising around on 9 meter sail on a wide board feels no different than a 7 meter on a 130 liter board.

Thanks Ken.
My level is harness footstraps carving gybes down to 92 lt board.No wave or freestyle sailing. Maybe I'll have the chance to get some time on wide boards to see for myself!
Anyway when you can't really test all these boards maybe you get carried away by marketing. So many boards sails and specs!

[Ken]

Some windsurfers just don't like the big boards and sails (cost can be an issue), even though they would get more planing time. It's an individual thing. I would rather be planing on my formula board in 6-12 knots rather than sitting at home or on the beach waiting for more wind. Some will venture out on their intermediate size boards and sails and slog, plane, slog, slog, plane, etc

And yes, the range of equipment options is mind boggling. I actually think it makes it more difficult for beginners and intermediates to get started because it's so difficult to know what will be best for them.

When I started in 1984, there were a half dozen long boards to choose from and all were similar in design and performance. After mastering the long board, then there were a half dozen "transition" boards where one could still uphaul and learn the basics of the short board. Then there were a few small board options after that. It was pretty hard to make a mistake in a board selection other than trying something too small too soon.

You may be better off staying with your gear for a while longer and then decide what to do. The Futura 141 may be a good option if you don't want to go to the really big stuff, but it's a little close to your 130 liter board. A good combination for your size would be the 141 and then something around 100 - 110 liters.

I jump from my formula board down to an iSonic 111. The sails I use are - formula board 11.0, 9.2 and sometimes 8.4. Then my iS with 8.4, 7.6, 6.6. Next is my bump and jump 105 board with 6.6, 6.0, 5.2, and 4.5.

[f2sunset]

Thanks ken.One more question guys. I was also told that I should try a bigger fin , that 130 lt board for my 72kg and 7.0 sail is enough and should not go for larger and wider(the answer from jp). Any comments?. I have a 43cm powerbox freeride. Would a bigger fin make any difference and what size? 48?

[Roger]

Ummm..... jp) who? told you that a 130 ltr <85 cm wide board is enough to plane in < 12 knots?
Was that Jason Polakow himself?
You can stay with your 130 liter and you can "COMPLAIN" that you are not planing, or you can go with something < 90 cm wide and be ploaning on perhaps an 8.5 m2.
That's the physics here.
Yes, bigger fin will help you to plane a knot or two lower in the wind spectrum, but not a 48 cm.
Put a 60 cm on your 130 liter and you would plane earlier, but you would not like what it does when
your board gets up to it's full speed potential.
Your board is simply too narrow to work well with a => 60 cm fin.
So, the choice is yours.... wider board larger sail or not planing.
Roger

[f2sunset]

I don't know Roger who answered from jp but thats what he told me . He said that wider boards would get me to plane sooner but once they planned would feel very large boards for my weight and maybe the x-cite ride 134 would be better for me. Anyway I will have the chance tomorrow of borrowing a larger fin and have some turns with a jp slalom board 82cm and an isonic 85cm so I'll tell you how it feels if you don't mind.
Thanks for the advise for the fin.

You also have to consider that of course I'm not so experienced as other guys here and have not tested so many boards so I have lots of questions