Old 3rd May 2007, 05:22 PM   #11
Remi
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Default RE: R19 xtrasoft +8

Hi Dudu and Sieger,

Deboichet devellope a lot a of different profil with different stifness to satisfy everybodies, and personnaly I check my protoype and the serial one that customers receive in Martinique, everything is perfectly ok.
By the way julien Quentel show us again the performances of the last R19 soft -- rake +8 cm in super light win at the FW European with a fantastic first place. Yes this fin is stiffer than a R17 soft because is definitely not the same profil, you can't compare stifness between different profil.

This is also Jean-Jacques answer :


ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO COMPARE THE STFFNESS BETWEEN 2 DIFFERENT MODELS - THE INTERNAL CONSTRUCTIONS ARE NOT THE SAME - MAYBE ONLY WITH A MACHINE MEASURMENT YOU WILL FIND THE DIFFERENCE BUT ANYWAY ALL OUR FINS HAVE A DIFFERENT CONCEPT SO A DIFFERENT CONSTRUCTION - IF YOU COMPARE R13 SOFT TO R17 SOFT THE 17 WILL BE MUCH SOFTER THEN THE 13 - THE 19 DUE TO HIS CONCEPT IS MUCH THICKER THEN ALL THE OTHER FINS THAT ARE IN OUR RANGE SO THE STIFFNESS IS STIFFER THEN THE OTHER MODELS.
I THINK THAT THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE CUSTOMER(S) ARE EXPECTING A REALLY REALLY SOFT FIN BECAUSE OF THE MENTION "SOFT LESS LESS" BUT ON THE 19 THE STIFFNESS RANGE IS NOT THE SAME THEN 17 OR 13 OR 16 ETC THAT ARE ALSO NOT THE SAME BETWEEN THEM...
LET ME KNOW IF THIS IS ENOUGH FOR YOUR AS AN EXPLANATION... ANYWAY WAT I WANT TO SAY ALSO IS THAT EVERYONE HAVE HIS OWN WAY TO DEVELOP THE STIFFNESS AND THERE IS NOTHING (NO RULE) THAT SAY THAT SOFT LESS LESS MUST BE FOR EVERY FIN LIKE THIS OR THAT AND SOFT LIKE THIS OR .... ETC...
ALL THE BEST - ORIANA
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Old 5th May 2007, 08:37 AM   #12
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Default RE: R19 xtrasoft +8

Sounds pretty obvious cause the stiffness is just a ratio of force/deflection, but I believe Sieger was comparing two R19, one S-- and S... with the S softer than S--
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Old 8th May 2007, 06:01 AM   #13
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Default RE: R19 xtrasoft +8

Remi, perhaps deboichet should also comment on the two R19s Sieger has presented on this thread, it is perhaps something that cannot be ignored. and also provide some guideance for "Tom C" perhaps a way to check his fin's stiffness.
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Old 5th June 2007, 11:38 PM   #14
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Default RE: R19 xtrasoft +8

Hello,

UPDATE, I started this thread about 6 weeks ago on the difficulty I was having on the R19 S--. Since this time, I have sailed the R19 many times. I will now say that the fin is very good in light air despite being very stiff. There is a learning curve or difficultly factor that took me sometime to adapt and get all the power from the fin.

The really soft flexible fins are easy to sail (R13 S--) but give up some upwind ability and speed going downwind compared to the R19 S--.

However, the R19 S-- is much more difficult to pump on plane than say an R13 S--. Once I realized I need to apply more force to pump the sail on plane I have been very happy with the performance both upwind and downwind. In light air 9-13mph it clearly drives upwind better than my softer fins in R13 models.

I still think the R19 S-- would perform better if it were a bit more flexible or less stiff, but I don't profess to be a fin designer or builder. I'm sure debocheit designed this fin for ultimate light air performance and not comfort. Anyway I guess Debocheit has been redeemend atleast from my perspective.

Tom C

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Old 6th June 2007, 04:20 AM   #15
Remi
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Default RE: R19 xtrasoft +8

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your answer, but yes at Deboichet we continue to develop something beter and beter for light wind.

All the best
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Old 17th June 2007, 09:29 AM   #16
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Default RE: R19 xtrasoft +8

Why does this Oriana guy write in CAPS? He seems like a very angry dude all the time?
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Old 17th June 2007, 09:55 AM   #17
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Default RE: R19 xtrasoft +8

Err he or she. oops maybe.
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Old 17th June 2007, 12:05 PM   #18
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Default RE: R19 xtrasoft +8

"you can't control stiffness with a different profile."

Hmm. So, your point is that if one manually flexes say a S fin of a different profile; it will be / feel different in flex? Duh. But still, there must be some standards which cause one to be considered S, and another M, no? What then is the concept? Just that one R19 will be softer than another R19? If so, that's pretty lame--maybe not in concept or execution, but at least in the information you're giving out for defining your product. Like making a sail range of a bunch of 10.0s from light wind 10.0-- to high wind 10.0. This is quite possible. I know a pro that has 3 'identical' 4.2's--each cut for a totally different wind strength. But, if the sailmaker was to market these three sails--users would be confused, unless they were informed what the deal was on each 4.2.
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