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Old 15th June 2016, 03:34 PM   #1
Nakaniko Unregistered
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Default windsup questions

A friend wanted to start suping, I convinced himt to buy the 2015 Astro Zen Inflatable Windsup, the one with two US fin boxes glued under the board, one rear and one in the ceterboard position, two Drake squared fin provided (20 cm I suppose, but with a lot of surface). Over a single M8 insert.
Now he wants to try windsurfing. Some questions:
- mastfoot? Boge type seems a little bit too hard to flex over and iflated board, better a tendon type, seller suggested a cardanic type but I dislike them...
- fins? what the maximum lenght suggested considering the glued us fin boxes? Sail range goes up to 7,2 if I well remember but it doesn't seems a good idea to put there a 38 cm us fin (longest us I have)...

See nakaniko channel on youtube, ciao
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Old 16th June 2016, 08:01 PM   #2
Jean-Marc
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Hi,

Tiesda You has said a long time ago that a max fin lenght of 32 cm is fine in the US box of a Kombat 105 which is a hard laminated B&J board.

However, this is certainly a very bad idea to put a 38 cm long fin in the US box of an inflatable windSUP. You will break or rip out the fin box for sure. Reason is that the Astro US box fin box assembly on the Astro Zen inflatable windSUP is not crossing the top to bottom whole thickness of the board as that of the Tuttle fin box assembly of the Airplane for example, but is simply glued on the bottom tail of the board, thus providing a much less leverage and lesser structural resistance that that of a standard US box rail mounted on a hard laminated board.

I wouldn't go beyond the recommend fin lenght of 22 cm on the Astro US box Zen inflatable windSUP of 2015 and 2016.
Same for the centerfin, don't overfin it. The Deluxe version does have a retractable 57 cm soft daggerboard which is very efficient and handy when going upwind in low wind.

I will let Antoine or Tiesda chime in to provide additional infos on max fin size for the Astro Zen inflatable windSUP.

As for the mastfoot, I agree Boge univeral or race urethane tendons are a bit too stiff for such M8 insert that is laminated and glued on the soft deck of the board. IMHO, a cardan-style universal* is the way to go because it will put much less stress over the M8 mast base insert while being bent at 90° when the rig is lying on the water. Max sail size is about 7.0-7.5 m2 no-cams sails, very soft and baggy Dacron sail to get a good drive in very light winds.

Be warned that this is a SUP that can be windsurfed and is not the same as a windsurf board that can be SUPped. This has nothing in common to either the Serenity nor to a shortboard slalom or a long raceboard.

If SUP is the dominant practice, the 12'6" x 31" Astro Zen is the best horse for both flat water SUP & windSUP : http://www.star-board-windsurfing.co...atable-windsup.

However, if windsurfing is going to be the dominant practice and If you absolutely want a 38 cm fin + 7.5 m2 sail combo and be able to truly experience windsurfing planing like the hard Carve freeride board, better get an Airplane.

Cheers !

JM

(*) I'm using a cardan universal with my Serenity + 11 m2 sail since 10 years and I haven't had any issues with it. Very simple to use with a standard Euro-pin mast extension. See Bic cardan universal : http://www.nootica.fr/lower-section-...se-169730.html

Last edited by Jean-Marc; 16th June 2016 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 17th June 2016, 08:11 AM   #3
Nakaniko Unregistered
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Thanks a lot!!! Very very clear answer!
Maybe some more advices and specs by Starboard on the website about these things would be appreciated. No warning over maximum fin lenght can cause warranty issues and arguments I suppose, as 30+ cm us fins are easy to find in the web... And also boge mastfoots.

So no big fin like I supposed. I can imagine that if it's a fin with a narrower body compared to the squared fins with a lot of surface that are provided, one can go slightly up in lenght, not more than some cm, as it seems to me that the leverage is made from lenght but also and mainly from fin surface (Drake Shallow is made for that, isn't it?)
So - if you agree - the only fin I will borrow to my friend is a Jp Sup Race 8,4" (21 cm deep, 30 cm lenght) with maybe half fin surface compared with stock Drake fin but with 45' degrees rake, so useful in the seaweeds of Venice Lagoon. Shorter than 20 cm only windsurf wave fins are avalaible here...

About mastfoot, if I well undestand the best solution is the cardanic, the worst is the boge, but is it ok the tendon mastfoot I've already bought for him? I mean at least wit the advice to avoid leaving for a long time the tendon bent on one side, like with board flat and rig on the side.
About your experience with the cardanic mastfoot and "our" Serenity I'm very interested...
I use a Bic tendon, avoid boge, but never considered cardanic having one (maybe old) broken on first attempt over an old and heavy Bic Jazz with a big sail.
Could you please explain in your opinion the benefits of the cardanic? Only the lack of any kind of leverage when the rig is down, or some more direct feeling in sailing?
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Old 18th June 2016, 03:34 PM   #4
Jean-Marc
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The short Starboard Astro US box helps to roll up the board as tight as possible :



Therefore, the Drake Shallow 22 cm fin is short to keep as small a leverage as possible but the surface of the fin is quite large to provide enough lateral resistance against sideway drift while windsurfing.

I'm sorry but I have no experience with anti-seaweed fins. I would say that if you keep the depth of the fin to 22 cm, you would be safe providing the area of the new raked fin is not larger than that of the stock Drake Shallow 22 cm fin.

I know that Select is making a weed fin in US Box for SUP, but I don't know whether it is strong enough for windSUPping : http://www.select-hydrofoils.com/fr/...ed/power-weed/
You can ask them by email : http://www.select-hydrofoils.com/fr/contact/
The Power Weed 9"/23 cm has an area of 230 cm2. The Power Weed 10"/25 cm has an area of 286 cm2 (http://www.supjournal.com/files_arti...ectSFFins7.jpg).

FCS is also making a Fin race weed racing 10"/25 cm in US Box for SUP : http://www.surffcs.com/shop/sup-raci...eed-racing-10-

Check the Race Ultra or Race Ultra Cutaway or Dolfin 22" Starboard SUP fins here : http://star-board-sup.com/2016/fin-overview/

About mastfoot. Again, I would recommend a cardan-style universal over a tendon-style universal (e.g., Streamlined, North, NP) simply because tendon made of urethane are very stiff and hard to bend (it's a quality you want with a true windsurfing raceboard). If you already have a tendon-style universal, what make and model do you have ?

As for my Bic cardan-style universal, it is in fact a semi-cardan because it can freely move through one axel (North-South) only*. The whole assembly is made of soft plastic which can bend sideways (East-West). The big benefit is the easy use when connecting the giant rig to the big longboard : just let drop the top pin on one side and connect the mast extension cup. No need to bank the board at 90° or force over the pin to be bent at 90° so it can enter the mast extension cup as with a tendon universal.

Cheers !

JM

(*) see here and magnify over the picture : http://store.bicsport.com/windsurf/s...universel.html
A true cardan-style universal are those made with a cube in between so that you have freedom of movement in all 4 cardinal directions. See here for a true cardan universal : http://chinooksailing.com/index.php/...ro-pin-ex.html


Last edited by Jean-Marc; 19th June 2016 at 08:08 AM.
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Old 21st June 2016, 10:08 AM   #5
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Ok I've told my friend the best solution for him is the cardanic, and I'll keep for me the tendon. He'll soon buy this type from a local dealer (the RRD model). I've sent him the link of this page.
Just few minutes ago has arrived to me the packet with the tendon type I've bought, you are right, tendon, at least this, is hard to bend so for sure the cardanic would be way better for a beginner-supper.
Many thanks for your explanations.
Let me say at the end, mainly to Starboard staff, that when a mastfoot insert is provided one could expect to fit any kind of mastfoot without worries about damaging the inflatable board. The same with the fin lenght/area. So to avoid warranty issues more detailed technical explanations would be necessary by Starboard, I mean a fin range and clear suggestions about mastbase when selling a board like this (btw really outstanding and wonderful board!)
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Old 21st June 2016, 10:10 AM   #6
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ops sorry it's my answer, forgot to write nakaniko
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Old 22nd June 2016, 11:45 PM   #7
r_s
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'Fins for inflatable windsups?' ....

I had many discussions with friends concerning this topic. Compliments to Nakaniko and Jean-Marc to start the discussion here in this forum! I think it's really an important aspect that can improve the performance of inflatable windsups SIGNIFICANTLY!!!

Thus, i want to share some practical experiences ... everything for the Starboard Windsup Whopper Zen 2016 (fins: two Drake Shallow 22)!

First, some friendly words ... :-)

Starboard describes the Whopper as: 10'0"X35" WINDSUP - Stable and Compact All-Rounder Wind SUP. I totally agree, the board is a very good all-rounder, really makes a lot of fun! Believe it, I'm a normal customer, do not work for starboard! :-)))

Paddling (of course, only with the rear fin): Relaxed touring on flat water with typically 5-5.5 kmph. Keeping length and width of the board in mind, i think that this is absolutely ok. Very stable! Perfect for beginners, but also for advanced paddlers to play around.
Windsurfing (with both fins): Definitely one of the best boards for beginners I ever tried! Very stable, very easy to turn, easy to go upwind!


BUT ... now the less friendly comments ... :-)

Paddling: When going to rivers, or into small waves (just 0.5-1 m), the fun is ... let's call it 'the fun is limited'! We compared with a Whopper SUP Deluxe from 2015 (Fins: 6 3/4″ US Box, two 4.5″ side fins). Without discussing details, this board made definitely MORE fun!

Windsurfing: When used with BOTH fins 'fun is very limited', as soon as the wind reaches a strength where planing becomes possible. It is impossible to go back to a 'relaxed planning position', consequently 'to much weight close to the mast base', and additionally a feeling that the rather thick Drake fins act more like a brake. The performance improves, when the center fin is removed. Using just the rear fin it's easy to make the board planing (rail edge technology is definitely doing a great job!!! ), planing upwind is ok. Of course, it's not 'high speed planning'. But nobody would expect that from a windsup! However, as soon as you want to make jibes ...'only one rather short fin on a board with broad tail and a lot of volume' ... i think not surprising, that 'fun is really limited' ...

BUT EVERYTHING CAN BE SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVED simply CHANGING THE FIN SETUP! :-)

As mentiones above, I think that NOBODY can expect 'high speed planning' from a windsup.
But 'relaxed low/medium speed planning and having just fun' should/must be possible! Consequently, i think there is NO NEED for LONGER high performance FINS on a windsup (that would just stress the fin boxes too much), and a 'more wavy than speedy fin setup' is preferable ...something between a '2+1' and thruster setup ... with fins having reduced thickness (reduced drag) ... but enough area to go upwind ...

Our solution:
- 2 additional 'FCS BOXES / DELUXE' for inflatables ... from starboard ... ;-)
- 4.5" light core side fins ... from starboard ...
- 230 light core as rear center fin for windsurfing ...again from starboard
- 6 3/4" injection molded as rear center fin for paddling ... once again from starboard :-)))

...boxes glued on the Whopper Windsup ...appr. where you find them an the Whopper Deluxe SUP, but with appr. 1.5 degree toe angle ...

The results:

Paddling (6 3/4" rear + 4.5" side fins): On flat water comparable glide ... but definitely MORE FUN on small waves (0.5-1 m), even better than the mentioned whopper from 2015 ...i think the rails help once on a wave ... yet not tested on rivers ... but have already ordered a PH River and white water side fins ...I'm sure, that will make more fun too :-)

Windsurfing (230 light core as rear center + 4.5" light core side fins): Board starts planing much easier, planing upwind no problem, no problem to find a 'relaxed planning position', no more the feeling that something slows the board down continuously, significantly better behavior during jibes ... and the biggest surprise: when the wind goes down between gusts the Whopper continues planing quite well ... of course, everything not high speed, but with a speed that already makes real fun! Going upwind when not planing is also not difficult (fin area partially moved to the front!), board turns generally easy ... and if a real beginner goes on the board: add the drake shallow as front center fin, and its perfect for beginners again :-)

Summing up: 4 fin boxes on a board might look somewhat crazy ... but the paddling as well as windsurfing performance are significantly improved ... much more fun with one board ... makes the Whopper ZEN - in my opinion - A PERFECT ALL-AROUND FUN OBJECT!!! :-)

To everybody from Starboard:
Try it! I'm sure, you will be positively surprised!!! Of course, this approach will not work for the longer windsups, where the mast base is too far away from the rear fin box ... but adjusting the fin setup in dependance of length/width (as you do it for the hard windsups), and NOT simply putting the same two fins on all inflatable boards, might be a good way to improve the performance of all your inflatable windsups ... ;-)

Best regards,
Robert

ps:
Windsurfing: We used NP Hellcats in 6.2 and 7.7, respectively. The modified fin setup worked fine with both sails!
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Old 23rd June 2016, 08:10 AM   #8
r_s
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... attached some pictures from the modified fin setup on the Whopper Windsup Zen 2016 ... :-)

And some additional comments to Starboard:
Please try it! I have the impression, that a modified fin setup can unlock the full potential of the rail edge technology for inflatable windsups. If you want to offer the windsurf community a really versatile und unique 'fun toy' for days with low or no wind, you can do it. You have all components necessary in your program!

Best regards,
Robert
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Old 27th June 2016, 07:24 PM   #9
Jean-Marc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r_s View Post
'Fins for inflatable windsups?' ....

As mentiones above, I think that NOBODY can expect 'high speed planning' from a windsup.
But 'relaxed low/medium speed planning and having just fun' should/must be possible! Consequently, i think there is NO NEED for LONGER high performance FINS on a windsup (that would just stress the fin boxes too much), and a 'more wavy than speedy fin setup' is preferable ...something between a '2+1' and thruster setup ... with fins having reduced thickness (reduced drag) ... but enough area to go upwind
I agree, you're right to say there is no need for longer fin on a windSUP. I tried the Whopper and the Freeride 12'2" windSUP (both as hard laminated boards, not as inflatable). Here is my review of the Freeride 12'2" that I wrote a while ago : http://www.star-board-windsurfing.co...t=16892&page=2

I used the stock fin with a 7.0 no-cams Gator sail and I felt there was no need for a longer fin because the board is quite long anyway to provide enough lateral resistance against drift by banking the board. Obviously, things are a bit easier when you have a 57 cm daggerboard to point upwind with a forward mast base insert. However, without the daggerboard and with a most rearward mast base insert, things can be a bit hairy when pointing upwind. This is what I wrote :

"On one hand, pointing upwind with the centerboard down is very good when the mast base is screwed on the most forward insert position, providing the rider is pushing down the leeward rail with his/her toes. Pointing upwind with the centerboard up is difficult, however; the rider has to push the windward rail down with his/her heels to have some grip upwind.
On the other hand, pointing upwind with the centerboard up is almost impossible when the mast base is screwed on the most rearward insert position. The board simply drags sideways without any bite at low speed. No problems pointing upwind with the centerboard down, however."

It's a very good point to try different fin setup for windSUP - same fine tuning as we do for windsurfing boards. Thanks a lot for your review and for sharing your own test, no doubt this is going to be very helpful to other windSUP riders looking to improve their fin setup. I'm sure staff at *B's HQ will read this and will try that as well.

Cheers !

JM
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Old 27th June 2016, 07:42 PM   #10
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About the 2012 SUPer 10'0" Whopper I tested 4 years ago, here is something about fine tuning the fin setup :

"We introduce the new Starboard composite Hexel fins in cool tinted black finish as standard for all SUP boards other than the SUPer’s. Our plan was to also have composite side fins integrated into the program. However after testing of various side fin set ups and further the stiffness’s in the thruster fins , it was found that the side fins with more flex were actually better suited to our boards.
A smoother initiation into a turn and arc all the way around was very clear. The larger volumes and thicker rails of the SUP boards obviously react differently to that of traditional short boards , which most surfboard fins are designed for. Going back and forth with testing it was found that the flexi fins were simply better. Throughout the range varying sizes of center fins and thrusters are used. Differences in length width and volume obviously requiring varying fin surface area.
For the smaller sizes, (7’11/8.0/8.5) a thruster with M’5 fins up front in combination with a Drake cool Hexel 19cm centre fin is the perfect blend between drive, traction and acceleration while still being loose. The larger sized boards from 9’0 up gradually increase to counter the extra size and volume required.
The exception being with Whopper, and Hero who’s immense width actually suited having smaller centre fins with larger side fins. The selected injection molded side fins are made from the stiffness derived from PA+GF30%".

source : http://blog.surfingsports.com/2010/0...-in-stock.html
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