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Old 11th July 2007, 07:05 PM   #11
LK
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Default RE: Race sails

He thats good news , so my Severne sails dont rust either !!



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Old 11th July 2007, 07:37 PM   #12
geo
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Default RE: Race sails

Guest,

I do suspect glue - provided its density is lower than that of film - may add something to rigidity and creasing resistance. Rigidity might (not sure) contribute to stability, but it would be very hard to tell what is materials and what is design. As an instance, the hyper stable race sails I own and use are made of simple film, do need extra low downhaul tension and their stability is unquestioned. If I get you right you own Norths, they are extra stable too, but you might break your back in order to apply correct downhaul. And I don't think glue can add anything to resistance.
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Old 11th July 2007, 08:13 PM   #13
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Default RE: Race sails


1.Painted, coloured and laminated films are 3 different things.
When adding colour (pigments), fillers, additives to polymers, you normally affect things like Tensile strength, Elasticity, Elongation, Elongation of Break ... to the worth. Ageing, mostly UV resistance to the better.
So a painted monofilm is protected better against UV (which is the bad guy here), than none painted, without compromising the technical specifications.
A coloured film has better UV protection than non coloured, but the pigments can (does) affect the quality.
Pigments are normally the most effective UV protectants, and work in relative small concentrations.
Chemical UV protectants are very expensive and are less effective than pigments.
So from the sight of quality, the painted film could be the best choice. 
Weight is no issue here; just ask Barry, he gets criticism cause the weight of his sails.
Quality of laminated films depends on raw film qualities, glue and process a.m.
Laminated films are the future IMHO, it’s about price/performance calculations.
With laminates, you can play with a lot more parameters at the same time.
ITS ONLY A QUESTION OF $$$$$$$$$$$

2. But ! Sail quality depends only partially on film quality, the rest is design, distribution of forces, quality of sewing, other materials and more.
3. Choosing a sail because of painted or coloured is as stupid as choosing cause the signature.

I start my first posting: Severne Code Red IS A OPTION TOO .
This means, I agree that Warps and TR3 are good recommendations too.
You, GEO start with “ I HAVE A BETTER SUGGESTION”
The only thing that works for you is Maui Sails, because of the signature?

The TR3 is an interesting design, because Barry chooses (a couple of years too late IMO) to work with fare less downhaul forces to achieve a stable, fast wide sleeve race sail, the opposite way of NP. The Code Reds use less DH forces too.
I wanted to test, and take a TR3 10 or 11 with me home from Maui, but they had not arrived before I left Maui.
I never buy a sail again without testing it. You can’t trust what you read in advertisings.

I believe that Warp, Vapour, TR3 and Code Red are very close in quality and performance.
Downhaul tension NP -> Warp -> Vapour -> Code Red -> TR3.

In Cam rotation, the Code Red 07 is the nr.1, take my word, not the sign of the sail.

Had Warp, NP RX1/RX2/RS1, Nitro 3, 4, so I am not married with one brand.

The rest is rigging, availability of sail/mast, pricing and colour 
And don’t forget there can be big differences between sizes in the same line.
But sure it’s always easier to “believe” in Jesus or Barry or Robert or Dan or Kai or Nils, Ben Jesper.

Have fun


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Old 11th July 2007, 09:38 PM   #14
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Default RE: Race sails

Interesting post LK.

And I liked your statement "Laminated films are the future IMHO".

My knowledge is not as good as yours, but I agree with that comment above. The people who just say 'two layers and glue is crap' are jumping to the wrong conclusion.

All sorts of high-tech products are laminates. Even low-tech products such as plywood. Ok with plywood there are some issues with grains which benefit from the laminate construction, but I think there is real potential for windsurfing sail technological progress with laminate monfilms.
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Old 11th July 2007, 10:41 PM   #15
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Default RE: Race sails

Quote:
LK wrote:


Laminated films are the future IMHO, it’s about price/performance calculations.
With laminates, you can play with a lot more parameters at the same time.
ITS ONLY A QUESTION OF $$$$$$$$$$$
Interesting conclusion. Maybe I'm not getting this, but AFAIK, laminates are advantageous in situations where you need structural stiffness - you have different layers of stuff, and that stuff resists elongation, and so you get stiffness, preferably at lower weight. The ultimate example of that is sandwich construction - layers with extreme elongation resistance sandwiched around a very light core, creating a structure that optimizes stiffness to weight. If you just took the outer stuff (carbon/epoxy matrix, for example) at twice the thickness with no foam in between, it would be super-noodly - sandwich it, and because you have these two layers paralleling each other at a distance and being glued into the overall structure, the whole thing resists bending as you would have to elongate the outer layer. Same principle applies to just about any sandwich, and it's why we have light, stiff boards that survive high-speed on chop and are even jumpable.

Sail, however, are different - the structural integrity come from the spars, supported by the elongation resistance of the skin. Unless you build the whole wing as a unibody (as opposed to on the 'frame' of the spars), I have a hard time seeing how any of the properties you might optimize with laminates as opposed to straight film would really improve the whole package as elongation resistance (relative to weight) is inferior (resulting in either less elongation resistance or more weight for the whole package).

That said - there are other properties than elongation resistance that are of some consequence for the skin of the rig; puncture resistance, resistance to UV-induced decay, visibility through the skin (for the sailor) vs. visibility of the skin (to make for good visual impact and thus increase safety, as well as provide pretty pictures for the mfg. website and magazines...), etc.

The balance of the trade-offs is a bit different between race and freeride sails. Race sails tend to be performance focused, and they tend to be used a lot on the water, but babied on shore. So pure film, with its better elongation resistance (which holds up pretty well into old age until the film fails - compared to say xply, which seems to get spongy with time long before actual failure) gives a performance edge and good longevity (meaning that if you treat the sail well and don't abuse it on shore and don't leave it sitting rigged in the sun for ever, you'll get lots of use on the water at full performance).

Freeride sails tend to not place that much importance on all-out performance, and need to be a little sturdier on shore (where less OCD users might scuff them more, and won't be so concerned about avoiding wrinkling and such). There, the balance of tradeoffs seems to favor grids and laminates (more wrinkle and scuff and puncture resistant, but performance won't be as crisp and will deteriorate faster).

So why do you think laminated films are the future? It sounds like you imply that, with a bit of investment, laminates can be made that will improve upon pure film for the balance of tradeoffs of desirable properties in race sail applications. Are there laminates out there that, while having competitive weight, improve on pure film in the elongation resistance department? Or is it a matter of the weight and performance penalty having been reduced while still providing other benefits (visibility/visual appeal, scuff and puncture resistance, etc.)?

Of course, the key phrase in your statement is that it's "only" a question of $$$$$. In software engineering, it's simplified as "fast, cheap, good - choose any two." With race sails, there are lots of trade offs. In the end, cost is a huge part of the equation, so making a statement like "IT'S ONLY A QUESTION OF $$$$$$$$$$$" is a bit like simply assuming away a big part of the issue.

-Andreas

http://g-42.blogspot.com
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Old 12th July 2007, 03:03 AM   #16
geo
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Default RE: Race sails

Laminated film may be the future: I do agree, better then talk about "composite sail materials" and one immediately gets the idea: like in board construction, ar airplanes, with composites you can do lots of things by mixing the qualities of different materials.
But for now, if "composite" or laminated film means just film + glue + film, well... personally I'll wait a bit.
As for sails: I admit I have little experience. What I can say is that I own and use TR-3s now. Recently I sailed a '06 Vapor and couldn't believe the difference. TR-3 are much different from other modern sails I sailed before and absolutely worth a try. Words really could not be believed. At least in the slalom sizes I use.
As for "believing" (actually I used the word "trust"): don't you think Barry Spanier proved his competence above all possible doubts? Think of Dunkerbeck in the past, and think of what his one only top slalom sailor is doing now against huge competing teams.
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Old 12th July 2007, 09:57 AM   #17
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Default RE: Race sails

I just tested a Point-7 AC-1,it's really fast, good construction, easy handle. A very good sail probably better than than any of the most amous ones.
You should try one.
Cheers
Bis
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Old 12th July 2007, 06:57 PM   #18
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Default RE: Race sails

G-42 .... Andreas,

I think you answered your own question in the first paragraph when you pointed out the benefits of laminates in all sorts of materials and products. Whether it is related to structural strength, stiffness, creasability, elongability, puncturability ... or whatever ... but there are certain huge benefits with laminates ... so in due course ... when there is continued development, testing, refining, and identification of the properties that improve sail performance, then the laminates will be there to deliver.
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Old 13th July 2007, 02:14 AM   #19
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Default RE: Race sails

Quote:
Guest wrote:
G-42 .... Andreas,

I think you answered your own question in the first paragraph when you pointed out the benefits of laminates in all sorts of materials and products. Whether it is related to structural strength, stiffness, creasability, elongability, puncturability ... or whatever ... but there are certain huge benefits with laminates ... so in due course ... when there is continued development, testing, refining, and identification of the properties that improve sail performance, then the laminates will be there to deliver.
Actually, my point was that laminates have all sorts of really cool benefits - I just don't see how any of them create a better all around package than straight film. Unless you change the model of spars and skin to something more akin to unibody construction, the structural properties you could achieve with laminates by creating more spatial separation between the layers don't come into play, so you're stuck with layers w/o separation doing the job of absorbing surface tension - only not as well at the same weight.

I think the laminates, b/c of durability concerns related to UV and impact resistance, have proven themselves in freeride sails. Race sails, though - I'm not sure they've arrived yet. Now if you come up with some laminate sail cloth that consists of a real light thin layer with enormous ability to absorb the surface tension, and you pair it with a couple protective layers to make it feasible to use in sailmaking, and the whole package weighs in at about the same as film with better elongation resistance - great. But I don't think that claim can be made yet for any of the materials that are used in the current 'laminate' race sails.

-Andreas

http://g-42.blogspot.com
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Old 13th July 2007, 12:43 PM   #20
geo
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Default RE: Race sails

Maybe laminate materials will be the way to make battenless sails one day. Nevertheless until then I agree with G-42. As for UV resistance, if that is a problem to the point to make any trade off with lightness acceptable, then I guess that painted film is the way to go, rather than laminated materials.
Let's call things with their name: laminated film is fancy, not superior.
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