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Old 2nd September 2007, 08:20 PM   #21
sailquik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger View Post
Also not bad for a camless sail.
Wonder how many of the sailors here that suggest cambered sails are better have
ever sailed faster than 36.4- 39.9 knots in 20-25 knots of wind.
Not many!
Yep, Many,many times. And yes cambered sails are better for speed and stability

I have tried it (speed) with no cam sails many times as well and been off the pace.

Show me a speed sailor who goes fast on a good camless sail and I will show you one who will go even faster on a good cammed sail.

I have gone 40 knots on an Acid 73 wave board and 3.7 Kaos wave sail, but I have gone much faster on a IS50 speed board and Cambered Race/speed sail.

Horses for courses..............

For speed and racing, just look what the racers are using. It is obvious!

Now, that is not to say that there may be very legitimate reasons why one may prefer a camless sail to a cammed. But ultimate top speed and stability are not two of them.
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Old 4th September 2007, 10:56 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger View Post
Also not bad for a camless sail.
Wonder how many of the sailors here that suggest cambered sails are better have
ever sailed faster than 36.4- 39.9 knots in 20-25 knots of wind.
Not many!
Same day , same location http://www.gps-speedsurfing.com/gps....=21743&uid=433 The cam sail was nearly 3 knots faster in all categories, end of story.
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Old 5th September 2007, 02:03 AM   #23
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ok so a cam sail maybe faster at the all out speed events but when just free sailing i wouldnt cry about losing 3kts of speed
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Old 5th September 2007, 05:14 AM   #24
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Ok so Cammed sails are faster ? (sort of) but not sure they are in real rough water.We dont all sail on the mirror flat speed strips needed to do 40 knots +.
When did you last see a cammed sail being looped ? Riding waves ? even 360`s ?

A good no cam design can give a good account of itself on speed and then still be used for ducking and gybing. (Eg Saber; Thunderbird; Rock etc)

For 90% of sailors no cammed are not ok they are better; lighter ; easier to rig (and derig) easier to uphaul; easier to depower;easier to handle ; can be as fast in rough water(if not faster) ; oh but probably 2% slower at very top end ! (And then only if board; sailor and conditions can exploit that 2%) They are also cheaper; and dont wear grooves in your mast or stick in the thing when derigging.

I doubt very much wether limiting factor in most of us is the sail when it comes to Vmax.
(My best on a no cam is 42.6 mph and it was a Gun (and on open sea)!) My knees were crying enough before the sail was ! Dont think I would have gone any quicker with a cammed sail but ???

I have Yet to use a cammed sail that I like the feel of in gybes/ handling when compared to NP Alphas. NP Sabers or Tush Storms/ Thunderbird.
Cambered sails are only ok in handling. Never good.
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Old 5th September 2007, 01:40 PM   #25
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Same day , same location http://www.gps-speedsurfing.com/gps....=21743&uid=433 The cam sail was nearly 3 knots faster in all categories, end of story.
3 knots faster yes, Kean 44 years old trains hard and spends alot of time tunning his equipment on the other hand Richard is 61 years old i think he may have lost 3 knots in the 17 year age difference.
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Old 5th September 2007, 05:47 PM   #26
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Its not end of story at all; because 99% of sailors are not speedsailors on a speed course.
The sport is about having fun in the real world sailing conditions we are given.
Ok if you are turning up at West Kirby waiting for wind or driving/flying half way around world to find "speed courses" yes they are faster.(If you get good conditions)
We all also know speed needles ; missiles ; Sonic 50`s and the likes are another 3 knots faster. Never seen one launched at our venue !
The trick is choosing the kit that best suits your conditions.
No cam are just more fun.End of story.
I have a fully Cammed 5.8 North.Also have a 6.2 Saber. Been out loads of times to compare the two.The one on the flattest bit of water always wins (ie the one you dare bear away the most with)(Max speed both sails(at sea) 39MPH.
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Old 5th September 2007, 09:04 PM   #27
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Maybe I am not that qualified to talk here, as I struggle to make 30 knots at my (heavily choppy) home spot.
Since years I only have been seeing kiters, freestylers, people on freerace kit or very rare buddies with slalom kit at best; I just had to pay some attention to my stance to fly past them. Lately I had a few good sessions with a French guy that seemed pretty well trained with his slalom kit; meaning that I was surprised by his speed in all conditions, underpowered and in strong gusts, upwind and downwind... at last I had to fight to keep someone's pace (in my home spot, I mean!). After some sessions, I was able to be roughly as fast as him, and even noticeably faster in gusts (probably due to better sail and slightly smaller board), when sailing our 7.0s fully powered. Both cammed sails, me on TR-3, him on GTX. When the wind picked up, I rigged my 6.3 TR-3, he his 6.2 Saber; but then there was no more fun as I was easily and noticeably faster.
What I want to mean is: I am no champion class, just like to go fast; that buddy is the same; cammed sails seem to be of great help when trying to squeeze all the performance one's kit is capable of; non cammed sails, even if aimed at speed, don't seem to be adequate even at our level. Period.
What I get out of this experience is: until I will try to go as fast as I can, I will stay on race cammed sails.
And, by the way: 17 years is quite an age difference, but every speed sailor will probably agree that 3 knots more top speed is huge.

Last edited by geo; 6th September 2007 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 6th September 2007, 04:21 AM   #28
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This discussion is sounding just like the video format "war" between Blu-Ray and HD DVD. Whenever a bunch of males get together it's always my team (insert cam sails or whatever) is better than your team (camless sails) or the other way around. Bottom line is try both and then stick with what works for you. IMO, good camless sails (Retro are nice) offer great performance without all the frustration of many cam sales. If you're a pro then that few percentage points of increased performance is a must have so cams all the way. In the real world camless probably offers all the performance the vast majority will ever need. BTW, try waterstarting a large cambered sail in rough water in Lake Ontario! Not a lot of fun.

Cheers,

Grant
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Old 6th September 2007, 05:23 AM   #29
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Slalom board + cam sail + slalom fin = efficient blasting.

FreeRide board + no cam sail + swept fin = fun of another kind
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Old 6th September 2007, 07:54 PM   #30
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A lot of valid points (from both sides) so far.

Floyd "The sport is about having fun in the real world sailing conditions we are given.
The trick is choosing the kit that best suits your conditions.
No cam are just more fun.End of story."
I don't agree with the last part, and with your argument that cams are only for dedicated speed/slalom junkies on mirror flat venues. Where I sail, when the wind is 10-15 knots or holey (but not necessarily flat), I get a lot more fun from cammed sails 7.5-9m and slalom gear, tried and tested. Maybe that's just me.
I agree with the mentioned drawbacks though, the main (imho) being manoeuvers/gybing/etc.
A couple of years ago, Bruce Petersen sailed a Retro (i think) in a competition to prove its speed and versatility. Kudos for that (and he proved his outstanding sailing abilities), but I think most sailors (not just hardcore pros) will be faster with a cammed sail, IF that's your thing: more grunt through lulls, and more stability in the gusts.
All that said, I'd much rather use a Tush Storm 5.0 than a North Daytona 9.0, no surprise there All my sails are camless below 7m.

Last edited by Screamer; 6th September 2007 at 07:58 PM.
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