Source for Australian Pine? - Page 3

Jay · 26th September 2007, 12:39 PM

Mike, I forgot to mention in reference to your other questions: the board is a Serenity and the ding is on the wood veneer on the side of the board towrads the bow a couple of inches from the foam deck pad maybe a foot back from the bow end of that pad. It's not big enough to get my finger into it (too narrow) so I can't tell if there's a crunching sound.

That SystemThree epoxy does look great and Woodcraft is good to know about, thanks. Another way to get a clear epoxy that I know of is to use West System 105 resin with their 207 hardener. That hardener is designed to be clear and go over wood such as boat decks or canoes. It incorporates a UV protectant which is good since many don't. I'd still use a UV polyurethane over any epoxy to be safe. Regardless, that SystemThree looks potentially even better since it was designed for surf and windsurf boards. Thankis!

Mike T · 27th September 2007, 09:25 PM

Jay
Just a recommendation on you ding repair, Roger's idea will work fine. I would sand the are of the ding very light on the sanding with maybe 150 grit sand paper, Just enough sanding to get the clear coat that SB use to seal the wood off and to rough up the area for the epoxy to stick, sand a little out side of the ding let say a 1/4". Wipe the area with rubbing alcohol to make sure it's clean. Then cut a pieces of 4oz surfboard glass a little bit larger and the same shape as the ding. Cut out maybe two more pieces of glass getting progessivly smaller. Then what ever resin you deside to use mix up a small amout of resin and then transfer the resin to a larger cup so it doesnt get hot and it gives you more time before the epoxy kicks.
Using an acid brush brush on some epoxy to the wood and let it soak in, if it looks dry after a short time add a little more. Once the wood won't take anymore epoxy lay the larger piece of glass on the ding. Let the cloth soak up any excess epoxy. If it's still white and not clear add a small amout of epoxy with the acid brush, then just add the other layer of glass and repeat. You shoud have a nice clear layer of glass and epoxy. You should see the weave of the cloth and the glass should lay against the wood not float in the epoxy. Let it dry for 24hrs. Then wet sand the area with 320 grit, and dry and clean with Alcohol. Mix up a small amout of epoxy and fill the weave and any pin holes. This should give you a strong light repair and it won't be to noticable. Good luck! Mike T

Jay · 28th September 2007, 12:45 PM

Thanks, Mike. I appreciate your input.
I can see that there's an art to board repair, with trade-offs regarding strength, weight, cosmetics, and work.

Mike T · 28th September 2007, 09:17 PM

Jay
Your right about the trade-off but if you take your time and and do it slowly you can do repairs that are pretty close to invisiable. The big thing is be patiant and don't rush the job. It takes time to do it right. The one thing a friend tought me about board repairs back in the early 1980 (West-Wind Glass boards days). Once you apply the resin and the cloth and you've got any excess resin off walk away from it and let it cure. Don't fiddle with it. You can always sand it later and then apply more resin to fill the weave and a little extra to sand off and buff to a nice finish. Also with these clear epoxy's you can buff them to a nice shine by wet sanding them with 400,600,800&1000 grit wet sanding paper misted with soapy water and them some car wax scratch remover. good luck Mike T

Jay · 29th September 2007, 12:14 PM

Mike, thanks for the additional pointers.
When I read Eva the Board Lady's site (and also I watched the West System DVD) I think they recommended using a small plastic squeege with light pressure once you've saturated the glass similar to the method you described (ie, letting the cloth absorb limited resin and avoiding excess). Another method shown involved using "peel ply" (nylon cloth that won't adhere to epoxy) which is laid over the saturated glass and then squeegied and finally peeled off once the resin cures. I'm curious if you've ever tried these methods and if you think the method you describe is preferable. I've tried the simple squeegee technique before and it worked well but you have to be careful not to disturb the fibers at the edges of the cloth or to move the cloth. It did result in what appeared to be an optimal resin to glass matrix (still requireing a final resin coat to fill the cloth weave). You do have to be carefull to keep excess resin off the adjoining area. Masking worked well for that but there is a little leaking under the tape if there's non-skid.

Roger · 29th September 2007, 09:13 PM

Hi Jay,
If you had a vacuum pump, you could use the peel ply with a perforated barrier cloth and an absorbent layer on the out side to get the correct "wetting" out of your glass.
That's pretty much what Eva, Boeing, and all the other "composites pros" do.
Without the vacuum pump, you can use tape on dings on the rails to achieve something similar and sandbags or other weights on deck dings to compress all the repair products into the damaged area without having an excess of resin.
Hope this helps,

Mike T · 29th September 2007, 11:58 PM

Jay
I've done it both ways, with a vacuum pump and with peel ply and absorbent layer and plastic outer layer to seal it up. I've also just layed it out without vacuum bagging, alot depends on the location like Rodger says and if you have the equipment. Your right about the squeegie part sorry for leaving that out, But I figured if you are checking out Eva's web site you probably knew that. Also you can use Plumbers putty as a sealing tape instead of the dumb dumb tape. It works really well to get a seal around the nonskid. Just roll the putty into a long snake and press it into the board. I've also used a automotive vacuum hand pump with a gauge on small repairs. It will suck the film down and will hold a good vacuum when used with the plummers putty. The pump does'nt cost a small fortune either.
My brother in law uses the same thing to fix his I-14 skiff and has made quite a few carbon parts for his boat and new carbon brackets for a telescope.
You can also lay it up like your going to vacuum bag it and weight it down with a sand bag or tape it down. You just have to decide if it's in a high stress area and to what extent you want to invest in all the equipment to do the vacuum bagging gig. If it is in a non high stress area and is pretty small then just go with the simple repair. You can also use peel ply over the repair and squeegie it then this will keep the fibers in place. Tape works to keep excess resin off the surounding area and it keep you from sanding out side of that area your trying to repair. One other thing about the peel ply it will remove any blush from the curing of the epoxy and leaves a slight coarse surface for the final layer of resin to stick too. Just some more info for you. Hope this helps. Mike T

Mike T · 30th September 2007, 12:03 AM

Jay
To get the plummers putty up I use a plastic scrapper and then wash the rest off with some soft scrub and a brush to get it out of the nonskid. Mike T

Jay · 30th September 2007, 01:17 PM

Roger and Mike, thanks so much for the additional input, great stuff.
When I got into windsurfing I didn't think I would be either interested or able to do these kind of repairs but find it is both fun and practical. For major repairs I'll still get expert help but the hasstle of getting the board to a remote shop makes doing many repairs yourself very attractive. Thanks again!

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26th September 2007, 12:39 PM	#21
Jay Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 69	Mike, I forgot to mention in reference to your other questions: the board is a Serenity and the ding is on the wood veneer on the side of the board towrads the bow a couple of inches from the foam deck pad maybe a foot back from the bow end of that pad. It's not big enough to get my finger into it (too narrow) so I can't tell if there's a crunching sound. That SystemThree epoxy does look great and Woodcraft is good to know about, thanks. Another way to get a clear epoxy that I know of is to use West System 105 resin with their 207 hardener. That hardener is designed to be clear and go over wood such as boat decks or canoes. It incorporates a UV protectant which is good since many don't. I'd still use a UV polyurethane over any epoxy to be safe. Regardless, that SystemThree looks potentially even better since it was designed for surf and windsurf boards. Thankis!

27th September 2007, 09:25 PM	#22
Mike T Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 64	Jay Just a recommendation on you ding repair, Roger's idea will work fine. I would sand the are of the ding very light on the sanding with maybe 150 grit sand paper, Just enough sanding to get the clear coat that SB use to seal the wood off and to rough up the area for the epoxy to stick, sand a little out side of the ding let say a 1/4". Wipe the area with rubbing alcohol to make sure it's clean. Then cut a pieces of 4oz surfboard glass a little bit larger and the same shape as the ding. Cut out maybe two more pieces of glass getting progessivly smaller. Then what ever resin you deside to use mix up a small amout of resin and then transfer the resin to a larger cup so it doesnt get hot and it gives you more time before the epoxy kicks. Using an acid brush brush on some epoxy to the wood and let it soak in, if it looks dry after a short time add a little more. Once the wood won't take anymore epoxy lay the larger piece of glass on the ding. Let the cloth soak up any excess epoxy. If it's still white and not clear add a small amout of epoxy with the acid brush, then just add the other layer of glass and repeat. You shoud have a nice clear layer of glass and epoxy. You should see the weave of the cloth and the glass should lay against the wood not float in the epoxy. Let it dry for 24hrs. Then wet sand the area with 320 grit, and dry and clean with Alcohol. Mix up a small amout of epoxy and fill the weave and any pin holes. This should give you a strong light repair and it won't be to noticable. Good luck! Mike T

28th September 2007, 12:45 PM	#23
Jay Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 69	Thanks, Mike. I appreciate your input. I can see that there's an art to board repair, with trade-offs regarding strength, weight, cosmetics, and work.

28th September 2007, 09:17 PM	#24
Mike T Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 64	Jay Your right about the trade-off but if you take your time and and do it slowly you can do repairs that are pretty close to invisiable. The big thing is be patiant and don't rush the job. It takes time to do it right. The one thing a friend tought me about board repairs back in the early 1980 (West-Wind Glass boards days). Once you apply the resin and the cloth and you've got any excess resin off walk away from it and let it cure. Don't fiddle with it. You can always sand it later and then apply more resin to fill the weave and a little extra to sand off and buff to a nice finish. Also with these clear epoxy's you can buff them to a nice shine by wet sanding them with 400,600,800&1000 grit wet sanding paper misted with soapy water and them some car wax scratch remover. good luck Mike T

29th September 2007, 12:14 PM	#25
Jay Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 69	Mike, thanks for the additional pointers. When I read Eva the Board Lady's site (and also I watched the West System DVD) I think they recommended using a small plastic squeege with light pressure once you've saturated the glass similar to the method you described (ie, letting the cloth absorb limited resin and avoiding excess). Another method shown involved using "peel ply" (nylon cloth that won't adhere to epoxy) which is laid over the saturated glass and then squeegied and finally peeled off once the resin cures. I'm curious if you've ever tried these methods and if you think the method you describe is preferable. I've tried the simple squeegee technique before and it worked well but you have to be careful not to disturb the fibers at the edges of the cloth or to move the cloth. It did result in what appeared to be an optimal resin to glass matrix (still requireing a final resin coat to fill the cloth weave). You do have to be carefull to keep excess resin off the adjoining area. Masking worked well for that but there is a little leaking under the tape if there's non-skid.

29th September 2007, 09:13 PM	#26
Roger Dream Team - School Guru Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2,060	Hi Jay, If you had a vacuum pump, you could use the peel ply with a perforated barrier cloth and an absorbent layer on the out side to get the correct "wetting" out of your glass. That's pretty much what Eva, Boeing, and all the other "composites pros" do. Without the vacuum pump, you can use tape on dings on the rails to achieve something similar and sandbags or other weights on deck dings to compress all the repair products into the damaged area without having an excess of resin. Hope this helps,

29th September 2007, 11:58 PM	#27
Mike T Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 64	Jay I've done it both ways, with a vacuum pump and with peel ply and absorbent layer and plastic outer layer to seal it up. I've also just layed it out without vacuum bagging, alot depends on the location like Rodger says and if you have the equipment. Your right about the squeegie part sorry for leaving that out, But I figured if you are checking out Eva's web site you probably knew that. Also you can use Plumbers putty as a sealing tape instead of the dumb dumb tape. It works really well to get a seal around the nonskid. Just roll the putty into a long snake and press it into the board. I've also used a automotive vacuum hand pump with a gauge on small repairs. It will suck the film down and will hold a good vacuum when used with the plummers putty. The pump does'nt cost a small fortune either. My brother in law uses the same thing to fix his I-14 skiff and has made quite a few carbon parts for his boat and new carbon brackets for a telescope. You can also lay it up like your going to vacuum bag it and weight it down with a sand bag or tape it down. You just have to decide if it's in a high stress area and to what extent you want to invest in all the equipment to do the vacuum bagging gig. If it is in a non high stress area and is pretty small then just go with the simple repair. You can also use peel ply over the repair and squeegie it then this will keep the fibers in place. Tape works to keep excess resin off the surounding area and it keep you from sanding out side of that area your trying to repair. One other thing about the peel ply it will remove any blush from the curing of the epoxy and leaves a slight coarse surface for the final layer of resin to stick too. Just some more info for you. Hope this helps. Mike T

30th September 2007, 12:03 AM	#28
Mike T Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 64	Jay To get the plummers putty up I use a plastic scrapper and then wash the rest off with some soft scrub and a brush to get it out of the nonskid. Mike T

30th September 2007, 01:17 PM	#29
Jay Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 69	Roger and Mike, thanks so much for the additional input, great stuff. When I got into windsurfing I didn't think I would be either interested or able to do these kind of repairs but find it is both fun and practical. For major repairs I'll still get expert help but the hasstle of getting the board to a remote shop makes doing many repairs yourself very attractive. Thanks again!