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Old 21st November 2007, 12:33 PM   #31
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hi last poster. I agree with most of your article except about what you say in FE as you are completely wrong:

"I have never seen the point of Formula Experience. If you want to experience Formula windsurfing buy some used Formula stuff. "

Yes, but you still buy an equipment that is out of date. In FE you buy new equipment that is mostly same than what any other have. No one cant really blame someone that there is a disadvantage because you dont have the "years equipment". I quit FW because of this, and really dont appeals me to get back to it.
Also, FE boards dont loose their resale value as FW what is good for someone having a board or sail. You can still sell your equipment after 2 years and get back at least 50% of your money and renew it. Buying a board at 2500 USD and selling it after 9 months at 800 USD is not good i think.


"OK so if I wanted to race FE class I would have to have a 75% carbon, (they still brake too) class approved mast"

Yes, but brake a lot lot less than 100% masts, and also, cost a lot less. I have not seen almost any Powerex Z-free or Fiberspar R4800 broken in the last year.

"class approved free race sail, and class approved aluminum boom (this boom wouldn't last me one season)"

New freerace sails are very good. Try Overdrives from Severne or MS2 from Maui Sails, or Retro from Sailworks they are very good sails, very fast sails, very soft and easy to use to anyone. Very light as have less battens and cambers and finally more durable as they are not professional sailor oriented. Also, cost less than super expensive FW sails and DONT need a 100% carbon mast to perform good.
Finally, 3 years ago I could have blamed aluminum booms to be weak. But today, seems you have not tried any Nautix Formula Experience board or the new Chinook 285 boom. For 214 Usd you have a boom that lasts a lot. I can buy 4-5 booms of this ones (the best ones in FE)before I can reach the price of a carbon NP boom (the best in FW). Finally if you want a super rigid boom as a carbon one, just tie a rope from one side of the boom to the other side across the sail. And you find it, super stiff boom. Just creative and problem solved. Have you seen some FE sailors in pictures with their aluminum booms? try it...super stiff... a rope solved the problem.

Finally, no custom fins...you can use only the one that comes with the board and that really means 1000 USD less in your budget. Travelling to a continental event and finding that the top 5 guys have 5 custom fins for the board, costing 400 EUR each one is frustrating.

I am sure you can buy a new FE board + rig for about 2400-2700 USD and with 2 rigs for about 3900 USD. All new, and you wont need to buy more, no more fins, and this can last you at least 2 years in the rigs and up to 4 years in the board and still you are in the top of your fleet. Be sure you can still have a decent resale value after selling it.

The reason why FE class do not grow as it deserves is because its cheap and that is not good for all distributors and shops that want to sell the most expensive items. And well, not all people want to pay them. And then, no other companies than Bic and Starboard support the class presenting boards. Would be good to see other classes with boards there. And there is not really an additional cost reason. Its just by producing in ASA their FW board and using same model for 4 years...so not more money in developing boards all years...Be sure you can have lots of people more racing with this boards that what actually are. Or at least cruising in long distance races.

Hope companies invest more in FE next year as its a great chance to all to start racing, for kids, but also for all that 18+ years group that dont want and wont pay FW expenses, but dont like the non planning side of the sport (they prefer to go playing beach volley or soccer), and for sure, this non planning appeals other people in the sport that would prefer to go Raceboarding and forget about not sailing or racing in 9 knots or less.

So having chances for all is the best offer that windsurfing can give to windsurfers. Reducing them just leaves people unhappy as cant find an space for them in the scene.


Ricardo
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Old 22nd November 2007, 10:21 AM   #32
John from Canada
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Default Formula Windsurfing vs Racerboard class

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Hi, we are looking in our region to add one new class to our race calendar.

We are looking for a class with this characteristics:

- Fun factor
- More 18 - 45 years oriented
- Less price to be competitive much better
- Atractive international events to participate

Would be good if we can try to be the most objective possible on this. All input is welcome.

R.
In my opinion you would be silly to go down the direction of Formula with the above requirements.

There is a good website dedicated to longboards (raceboards) if you need additional info http://www.lbws.com.au

good luck
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Old 24th November 2007, 11:44 PM   #33
Ken
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As I see it, the prevailing wind conditions pretty much determine which way to go.

In North Texas, our history of regattas have been confronted with light winds about 75%of the time. As a result we typically offer the following classes.

Novice - any equipment - short out and back reaching course.
7.5 Limited - any equipment with 7.5 sail or smaller, typically long boards.
Open - any equipment, typically long boards
Formula -

If the winds are light, we may have a couple of formula racers that will slog around a short course that has an upwind leg, usually the same course as the Open and 7.5 classes. They do this because they don't have a long board.

The majority of the racers will be split between Open and 7.5 classes, almost all on long boards sailing triangle type courses. The 7.5 class accomodates those that haven't moved into the equipment race and BIG sails.

If it is windy, the 7.5 and novice classes usually sail a figure 8 slalom course.

Formula & Open sail a traditional formula or triangle course.

The majority of the local sailors that attend our races have both short and long boards, so if we are stuck with 3-5 knots, we still race. I still have my original 1985 Superlight with the 6.3 regatta sail and race in the 7.5 class if we have light winds.

If there is wind, I race formula.

Before Formula came along, I raced longboards in the open class for almost 20 years. However, I spent very little time free sailing them because they weren't exciting to sail in light winds.

Now that I am hooked on formula, I wait for at least 9-10 knots or I don't go out.

For what it's worth-------------
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Old 25th November 2007, 12:11 AM   #34
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Default look to Norway

we hawe alot of new FW exp- sailors,junors,and they are happy with the solid strong boards and easy and steady sailing the board. www.N12racing.no more to come.
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Old 11th December 2007, 07:53 PM   #35
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Cool Formula v Raceboards

Come on everyone it should be a quite simple. Personal preference.
It's like comparing a new Japanese 4 cylinder turbo(Formula) with a classic V8 muscle car.

It depends what your into.
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Old 12th December 2007, 02:19 AM   #36
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Ricardo,
I would have to desigree with your assesment FE vs. FW

1. it's being proven over and over again at the races that the skill is
what matters, min. you need is 2-4 year old rig/board and even production fin
and if you have the SKILL you will get into at least top 10,
to get to top 5 you might need more current toys, but if you're that good,
you can get the help from manufacture/ or a local shop.
,
2. FE is just a de-tuned version of FW, it will take 2 extra knots of wind
to plane and it's generally slower = not as much fun!

can't run a race if the wind is light

3. race sails also can handle comfortably a large wind range, again more fun
4. alum boom will cost last, but it will fall apart much faster than carbon
5. 75% carbon mast in jumbo rig is just too heavy!
6. as you said yourself, re-sale price on the FW is cheap,
so it's easy to start with used gear and be very, very competative
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Old 12th December 2007, 09:52 AM   #37
windstock anarchy
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Ricardo
Quote:
hi last poster. I agree with most of your article except about what you say in FE as you are completely wrong:
I was going to let this one fade, but someone else brought it back to the top.

I don't think the FE class is "completely wrong" as you say. Its just misguided.

FE started because of the olympics. They will not except anything but a one design class. So FE was the attempt made at a one design FW Olympic class. But then they put in the required centerboard and were stuck with the RSX.

So after the large investment in tooling up to make these plastic formula boards and not sailing FE in the Olympics, another spin was placed out here to move the inventory.

Ricardo
Quote:
Yes, but you still buy an equipment that is out of date
Out of date, thats correct, but I know that out of date FW equipment still wins some races.

Ricardo
Quote:
No one cant really blame someone that there is a disadvantage because you dont have the "years equipment". I quit FW because of this, and really dont appeals me to get back to it.
This is my #1 reason to sail FW. If I don't do well I can blame my old equipment. When I finish in front of the lastest stuff (and I have a few times) Its like I won the world championship.

Ricardo
Quote:
it. Buying a board at 2500 USD and selling it after 9 months at 800 USD is not good i think.
I think its great. You can get a 9 month old FW board for
900, go to a race, borrow a rig and a fin, (there's alot of stuff to borrow and most are willing to help out someone who wants to start race'n,) sail out to the start line. So 900 to start race'n FW with a 9 month old board vs 1250.00 for a two year old one design FE kit.

Ricardo
Quote:
Yes, but brake a lot lot less than 100% masts, and also, cost a lot less. I have not seen almost any Powerex Z-free or Fiberspar R4800 broken in the last year
At the last race I attended on Sunday Dec 9 only one mast broke was a two week old Powerex Z-free. Broke as he was uphaul'n right after get'n in the water. No 100% mast brakes. FW is developing class and it has made much progress with the 100% mast problems.

Ricardo
Quote:
New freerace sails are very good. Try Overdrives from Severne or MS2 from Maui Sails, or Retro from Sailworks they are very good sails, very fast sails, very soft and easy to use to anyone. Very light as have less battens and cambers and finally more durable as they are not professional sailor oriented. Also, cost less than super expensive FW sails and DONT need a 100% carbon mast to perform good
Yes those are good sails and you can use any of them at an FW race. I know some that do and they sometimes win.
But race sails used or new can't be used at FE events. Its a one design class allmost. Also race sails do just fine with less than 100% masts.

Ricardo
Quote:
Finally, 3 years ago I could have blamed aluminum booms to be weak. But today, seems you have not tried any Nautix Formula Experience board or the new Chinook 285 boom. For 214 Usd you have a boom that lasts a lot. I can buy 4-5 booms of this ones (the best ones in FE)before I can reach the price of a carbon NP boom (the best in FW). Finally if you want a super rigid boom as a carbon one, just tie a rope from one side of the boom to the other side across the sail. And you find it, super stiff boom. Just creative and problem solved. Have you seen some FE sailors in pictures with their aluminum booms? try it...super stiff... a rope solved the problem.
Havn't tried any recently, what's a picture worth



I have the NP boom and it still seems to be just as good as it was when I purchased it five years ago. Could use some new boom girp though. I also have an epic gear. Bought that for less than 500.00 retail from the store. I like it even better.
I would never trust a two year old aluminum boom, dosn't matter who makes it .
Yes I have seen the rope trick. Saw it done over 15 years ago, before they even had carbon booms and masts.
You need stiffer booms for the larger sails, but the FE just about a one design class won't allow a proper stiff boom, so put a hole in the window of the sail and tie a rope through hole to use the other side of the boom for more stiffness. (sic)

Ricardo
Quote:
Finally, no custom fins...you can use only the one that comes with the board and that really means 1000 USD less in your budget. Travelling to a continental event and finding that the top 5 guys have 5 custom fins for the board, costing 400 EUR each one is frustrating
Gotta agree bout the cost of the fins. I don't buy new fins any more, don't have to. Those top 5 guys with those 5 customs will have 5 more new customs soon and the 5 old customs will trickle down the used market to me for 100-200.00$us

Yes one fin for FE. If you brake or loose it you have to replace it with the class legal fin. Can't go borrow one of those customs and race, even though they would fit and work on FE boards.

Ricardo
Quote:
Its just by producing in ASA their FW board and using same model for 4 years...so not more money in developing boards all years...Be sure you can have lots of people more racing with this boards that what actually are. Or at least cruising in long distance races.
Producing boards in ASA as they did many many years ago when they could invest the $ in tooling up to make the 10,000 units they were selling per year worked then.
Now for FE, the mold has to run for four years and I'll bet that they still don't sell enough units to make a profit.
Bic windsurfing absorbs the losses. Starboard won't
I forcast that this is the last run of ASA FE boards for Starboard.

FW boards are just about as durable, simple to repair and weigh 10-15lbs less. FW dosn't have the tooling cost so the $ and time are invested into the new models

FE when it was spin off of FW was going good to begin with. Just like FW took off when it started.
I think FW will still be going strong in four years, while all that FE equipment is gathering dust in the sheds.

One more thing from post #1
Quote:
Would be good if we can try to be the most objective possible on this.
Isn't that your pic at the top of this forum?


peace love marry xmas
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Old 20th December 2007, 11:16 AM   #38
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Hey windstock anarchy. I think you are looking the comparison with FW racer eyes. Yes, none of the ones that race FW look back to go to something slower, they always would prefer FW, faster, lighter, early planner. But if you look for a class where anyone racing wants to be the best and not the "best of the slow old equipment, past years racers" then FW is not the way. FW favores the sponsored guys, as they have the chance to access to special masts, fins, boards. I want to be honest but none of the bests use 100% production equipment, thats not real.

I dont race FE but for me the concept is a lot better. I am a racer that wants to be the best...but dont have the money to race in FW. Actually I am in raceboard, so I look the class with raceboard eyes. I think FE will need a bit more wind to race than FW and more than Raceboard, but If i want to look for a planning based board for racing, I will go for FE for many reasons, starting from concept and then to pricing. And for sure, I have my freerace equipment with big sails and dont consider it heavy, slow and boring. But also, having less chance and money than others to have the top equipment "is boring" for me. Its not fun, despite than people in the second half of the fleet can consider it fun because they dont want to be the best of the real fleet.

So my answer to the first question, is go for raceboard if your wind is light, but for 10+ knots FE can be the solution to your problems.

Jean Pierre
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Old 1st December 2009, 10:05 PM   #39
Per
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I sail both FW and longboard. (F159 and Equipe). Both are great in each their own way.
In my inland spot the raceboard adds 30% more fun days compared to my formula. It can point high with a speed of +10 knots in winds where my formula struggles to plane.

BUT, and thats important, at 95 kgs I don't have fun in less than 10 knots of wind with a sail smaller than 8.5 m2 (prefareable 10.3 m2) on any of the two boards. To me the ancient 7.4 sails on raceboards are for the 70 kg guys to have fun.

NO FUN in light winds without big sails (1 m2 per 10 kg rider).

The raceboard can do + 25 knots easily with a 8.5 sail in 15 - 18 knots of wind, but the FW will outperform it on a course when both are fully powered. Planing threshold of the raceboard (with + 10m2) is surprisingly close to the FW, but in lower winds the formula shines on planing comfort and overall feeling. Fun factor on both boards is very high, but the formula is a bit more powerful and adrenalin creating when fully powered.
In less than 10 knots of wind the raceboard will kill the FW and it's still really active and challenging.

If I was to choose, I would go for the raceboard. It's fun from 5 - 25 knots of wind. The FW is fun from 10 to 25 knots (and theoretically both are doable in 30 knots but who on earth wouldn't prefare a smaller board in these conditions ;-). The raceboard will always bring you home no matter the wind direction - that's a very high safety factor.

;-)
Per
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Old 2nd December 2009, 05:36 AM   #40
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Red face

Raceboard why?? simple.
Can race in all winds until there is no wind.

shredulato
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