Formula Windsurfing vs Racerboard class: what to do? - Page 5

Darko_Z · 3rd December 2009, 05:59 PM

On this forum many people stated that FW is much more expensive and problematic for transportation than race board. I think that’s not logical, for example new STARBOARD Formula Experience costs around 800EU, new STARBOARD Phantom Race 380 costs more than 1600EU. If you are heavier than 90kg you have to use big sail on race board to, so rig is expensive in any case. Transportation of almost 4m long race board is bigger problem than transport of short FW board, it can be no discussion about that.
Fun factor depends on personal preference. For me windsurfing is fun only if I’m planning. Shloging formula or shloging race board is no fun for me.
As for competition, if wind is less than 3kn I would have more fun rowing than windsurfing and I would be probably faster.
Most interesting system for competition would be “All you can ride”. On the day of competition every competitor could choose the best board for him. Then you could observe duels, race board against RSX, FW against slalom board. Argumentations on this forum would than be resolved live. Some people will say that such competition would be only for reach people, but if you take in account all costs also travel accommodation and others, than you need lots of money anyway.

4th December 2009, 05:13 PM

I have heard that in the midwest US longboard is having a resurgence.

FW people were tired of watching form the sidelines on low wind days, and having their big sails and gear sit idly by.

Now I am NOT saying that this means FW is not good , it is .

I am just stating a fact.

shredulato

Per · 5th December 2009, 01:26 AM

Darko Z
I agree. The Phantom 380 is about the most expensive board on the market. And for a +90 kg sailor (I'm 95 kgs) it needs big rigs too. The FW shines in simplicity against the raceboards with their eight straps, daggerboard and adjustable mast track. A lot of things that can and will fall apart.
Regarding storage both my Equipe and FW are about 2.1 m2 in total area. It's a matter then whether you want the board inside or on top of the car. FW does occupy a lot of space too.
Today I checked both my FW and my Equipe in schlogging mode. The Equipe is just superior and way better (and actually fun). This means that it will bring me much faster to an area where there actually is planing winds.
Planing threshold is still surprisingly close as the FW is either on or off whereas the raceboard gradually builds up.
Top speed is equal.
Windsurfing in 3 knots isn't really surfing. The raceboard starts giving action in about 6 to 8 knots. In 10 knots it can be fully planing with some technique og at least pointing fast and high. those 6-8 knots is average in many areas and add A LOT of TOW to me.

I completely agree with Shredulato. Longboards will come back, end they are part of the future, not only the past.

Ken · 5th December 2009, 02:11 AM

I am with Dardko and Per,

Planing is essential for recreational sailing for me. When I had an Equipe II XR, I only used it for racing. Racing in sub-planing conditions is fun, but freeriding isn't.

When Formula surfaced, I had transitioned to course slalom (still had the Equipe for light wind racing), but I was getting smoked by the formula boards. I decided to keep up and went the formula route and sold the Equipe. I still had my 25 year old Mistral Superlight for those occasional light wind races. A super efficient board in less than 7 knots even with the original 6.3 regatta sail.

The 380 is a compromise as are all of the hybrid boards. They do everything, but they do nothing really well. Formula smokes them over 10 knots and the long boards (raceboards) smoke them in under 10 knots.

Joe · 5th December 2009, 09:30 PM

Ken - you nailed it!
Imagine a grass roots class - Formula 1.2 - 1 sail - two boards.
Formula board + Superlight (new model ) + 10.0 sail.
0-5 knots - paddleboard racing
5-10 knots - longboard
10-25 knots - formula

mcasaldaliga · 5th December 2009, 10:08 PM

Hi Joe and all,

this idea of a windsurfing class with 1longboard+1FW to cover total wind range is recurring, as you can find in other threads of similar topic. But in my opinion the best combination would be:

-1 pure displacement hull (Serenity or similar ...)
-1 pure planning hull for course racing -> FW

this way racing could be fun also a little below that 6 knots mentioned below.

In my opinion what's necessary for such a 2 board class to be successful is A WAY FOR CONVENIENT CARRYING and storing these 2 huge boards (that are HUGE IN COMPLEMENTARY DIRECTIONS that is what complicates it: one long and narrow and other ultra wide)

That would be solved by a 2 Part Serenity, the added weight wouldn't be that important for a such displacement hull

The pack to carry would be a huge box anyway but a well designed box for it could be carried on top of a car, I imagine.

Any other agrees with the idea? If that's the case, just let us know and let's STARBOARD hear the request.

Marc

Per · 6th December 2009, 01:22 AM

SIMPLICITY...
For all the years I've been windsurfing I've dreamed about having a single board and rig that would give me pleasure in any condition, from 3 - 30 knots; gliding, racing or waveriding. I always end up with at least four boards and five rigs ;-).
Everything is a compromise unless we spend a lot of cash...
The idea of two boards and a single rig isn't simple either. The hybrid boards were just a mix of that - give and take boards.
Anyway I believe that longboards will take over a lot as developement increases. The designers have got a lot of experience from all the FW protos, and an early planing machine with a daggerboard may one day be able to glide efficiently through any lull at great speed and fly upwind in 10 knots of wind. A FW will never be fun in less than planing winds.

Joe · 6th December 2009, 06:44 PM

I agree somewhat Per.
2 boards and 1 rig is probably as close to simplicity as we are going to get when performance is factored in. RSX or 380 class (1 board 1 rig) is as simple as you can get with decent performance. Formula (1 board 3 rigs) is not as simple but gives extreme performance in 10-25 knots. But 2 boards, 1 rig excels at the highest level in 5-25 knots.
Cost wise, I would bet the cost of the package could be comparable to RSX.
usd
Formula 10,000 (1 bd , 3 rigs, fins)
380 4,500 (3k board 1.5k rig)
Formula 1.2 4,500 (2.0 f board, 1k longboard, 1.5k rig)
RSX 4,500

Starboard should take their FW One Design proposal and add a simple longboard (superlight clone).

Darko_Z · 7th December 2009, 12:42 AM

Perhaps combination FW + Lechner would do best. Lechner board is shorter than Serenity and therefore easier for transportation. I guess that speed in sub planning conditions would be similar.
Hybrid boards like RSX have fin and dagger. FW fin is sometimes bigger than dagger on race boards. Perhaps it would be possible to make hybrid boards only with fin, but position of the fin could be changed to dagger position while sailing. For example Serenity, only one fin in middle of the board.
Did anyone consider the possibility Lechner with retractable hydrofoils?, small Hydroptere.

Farlo · 7th December 2009, 05:20 PM

Retractable foils no but small hydroptere yes, although the angle is close to 90°.

5th December 2009, 02:11 AM	#44
Ken Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas USA Posts: 797	I am with Dardko and Per, Planing is essential for recreational sailing for me. When I had an Equipe II XR, I only used it for racing. Racing in sub-planing conditions is fun, but freeriding isn't. When Formula surfaced, I had transitioned to course slalom (still had the Equipe for light wind racing), but I was getting smoked by the formula boards. I decided to keep up and went the formula route and sold the Equipe. I still had my 25 year old Mistral Superlight for those occasional light wind races. A super efficient board in less than 7 knots even with the original 6.3 regatta sail. The 380 is a compromise as are all of the hybrid boards. They do everything, but they do nothing really well. Formula smokes them over 10 knots and the long boards (raceboards) smoke them in under 10 knots. __________________ Toys: Formula 160; iSonic 111; HiFly Move 105; Tiga 263; '85 Mistral Superlight. Maui Sails TR 11.0; 9.2; 8.4; 7.6; 6.6; Maui Sails Switch 6.0; 5.2; Maui Sails Global 4.5; 4.0.

5th December 2009, 10:08 PM	#46
mcasaldaliga New Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 15	2 boards + 1 sail Windsurfing Class -> 2 part SERENITY Hi Joe and all, this idea of a windsurfing class with 1longboard+1FW to cover total wind range is recurring, as you can find in other threads of similar topic. But in my opinion the best combination would be: -1 pure displacement hull (Serenity or similar ...) -1 pure planning hull for course racing -> FW this way racing could be fun also a little below that 6 knots mentioned below. In my opinion what's necessary for such a 2 board class to be successful is A WAY FOR CONVENIENT CARRYING and storing these 2 huge boards (that are HUGE IN COMPLEMENTARY DIRECTIONS that is what complicates it: one long and narrow and other ultra wide) That would be solved by a 2 Part Serenity, the added weight wouldn't be that important for a such displacement hull The pack to carry would be a huge box anyway but a well designed box for it could be carried on top of a car, I imagine. Any other agrees with the idea? If that's the case, just let us know and let's STARBOARD hear the request. Marc

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3rd December 2009, 05:59 PM	#41
Darko_Z Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 34	On this forum many people stated that FW is much more expensive and problematic for transportation than race board. I think that’s not logical, for example new STARBOARD Formula Experience costs around 800EU, new STARBOARD Phantom Race 380 costs more than 1600EU. If you are heavier than 90kg you have to use big sail on race board to, so rig is expensive in any case. Transportation of almost 4m long race board is bigger problem than transport of short FW board, it can be no discussion about that. Fun factor depends on personal preference. For me windsurfing is fun only if I’m planning. Shloging formula or shloging race board is no fun for me. As for competition, if wind is less than 3kn I would have more fun rowing than windsurfing and I would be probably faster. Most interesting system for competition would be “All you can ride”. On the day of competition every competitor could choose the best board for him. Then you could observe duels, race board against RSX, FW against slalom board. Argumentations on this forum would than be resolved live. Some people will say that such competition would be only for reach people, but if you take in account all costs also travel accommodation and others, than you need lots of money anyway.

4th December 2009, 05:13 PM	#42
Unregistered Guest Posts: n/a	I have heard that in the midwest US longboard is having a resurgence. FW people were tired of watching form the sidelines on low wind days, and having their big sails and gear sit idly by. Now I am NOT saying that this means FW is not good , it is . I am just stating a fact. shredulato

5th December 2009, 01:26 AM	#43
Per Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 237	Darko Z I agree. The Phantom 380 is about the most expensive board on the market. And for a +90 kg sailor (I'm 95 kgs) it needs big rigs too. The FW shines in simplicity against the raceboards with their eight straps, daggerboard and adjustable mast track. A lot of things that can and will fall apart. Regarding storage both my Equipe and FW are about 2.1 m2 in total area. It's a matter then whether you want the board inside or on top of the car. FW does occupy a lot of space too. Today I checked both my FW and my Equipe in schlogging mode. The Equipe is just superior and way better (and actually fun). This means that it will bring me much faster to an area where there actually is planing winds. Planing threshold is still surprisingly close as the FW is either on or off whereas the raceboard gradually builds up. Top speed is equal. Windsurfing in 3 knots isn't really surfing. The raceboard starts giving action in about 6 to 8 knots. In 10 knots it can be fully planing with some technique og at least pointing fast and high. those 6-8 knots is average in many areas and add A LOT of TOW to me. I completely agree with Shredulato. Longboards will come back, end they are part of the future, not only the past.

5th December 2009, 09:30 PM	#45
Joe Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 64	Ken - you nailed it! Imagine a grass roots class - Formula 1.2 - 1 sail - two boards. Formula board + Superlight (new model ) + 10.0 sail. 0-5 knots - paddleboard racing 5-10 knots - longboard 10-25 knots - formula

6th December 2009, 01:22 AM	#47
Per Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 237	SIMPLICITY... For all the years I've been windsurfing I've dreamed about having a single board and rig that would give me pleasure in any condition, from 3 - 30 knots; gliding, racing or waveriding. I always end up with at least four boards and five rigs ;-). Everything is a compromise unless we spend a lot of cash... The idea of two boards and a single rig isn't simple either. The hybrid boards were just a mix of that - give and take boards. Anyway I believe that longboards will take over a lot as developement increases. The designers have got a lot of experience from all the FW protos, and an early planing machine with a daggerboard may one day be able to glide efficiently through any lull at great speed and fly upwind in 10 knots of wind. A FW will never be fun in less than planing winds.

6th December 2009, 06:44 PM	#48
Joe Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 64	I agree somewhat Per. 2 boards and 1 rig is probably as close to simplicity as we are going to get when performance is factored in. RSX or 380 class (1 board 1 rig) is as simple as you can get with decent performance. Formula (1 board 3 rigs) is not as simple but gives extreme performance in 10-25 knots. But 2 boards, 1 rig excels at the highest level in 5-25 knots. Cost wise, I would bet the cost of the package could be comparable to RSX. usd Formula 10,000 (1 bd , 3 rigs, fins) 380 4,500 (3k board 1.5k rig) Formula 1.2 4,500 (2.0 f board, 1k longboard, 1.5k rig) RSX 4,500 Starboard should take their FW One Design proposal and add a simple longboard (superlight clone).

7th December 2009, 12:42 AM	#49
Darko_Z Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 34	Perhaps combination FW + Lechner would do best. Lechner board is shorter than Serenity and therefore easier for transportation. I guess that speed in sub planning conditions would be similar. Hybrid boards like RSX have fin and dagger. FW fin is sometimes bigger than dagger on race boards. Perhaps it would be possible to make hybrid boards only with fin, but position of the fin could be changed to dagger position while sailing. For example Serenity, only one fin in middle of the board. Did anyone consider the possibility Lechner with retractable hydrofoils?, small Hydroptere.

7th December 2009, 05:20 PM	#50
Farlo Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 513	Retractable foils no but small hydroptere yes, although the angle is close to 90°.