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Old 22nd December 2009, 08:53 AM   #61
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what are the weight cutoffs??

shredulato
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Old 22nd December 2009, 09:14 PM   #62
Ken
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What specifically are the no pumping rules for the Kona Class? Is pumping allowed out of jibes and tacks and to catch swells?

There is no such thing as "no pumping". Sailors will find ways to pump and gain an advantage regardless of the rules. The really honest sailors get burned.

The only fair way that gives everyone an equal opportunity is to allow pumping. Yes it can be a lot of work, but we are athletes and we do what has to be done to be competitive. If you are too lazy to pump, don't be unhappy with the results.

I started racing in 1984 and competed in lots of "no pumping" races including the Mistral Worlds in Corpus Christi in the late 80's. Over 200 sailors from around the world and 75%were pumping beyond the rules. If you didn't cheat, you were left in the dust. There were also weight classes.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 04:38 AM   #63
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Hi Ken

This from the Kona site:

C.2 PROPULSION
C.2.1 General; Rule 42 shall apply at all angles of sail. Repeated rig movements (pumping) to increase or maintain speed is prohibited.
C.2.2 Penalties; A competitor performing repeated rig movements shall be warned by the on-water umpires by means of a yellow flag and penalized with a 360 turn with immediate effect. If the offense is repeated within the same race the competitor shall be given a red flag and disqualified.
C.2.3 Exemption; The Race Committee may permit propulsion (pumping) at wind speeds above planning threshold, - or approximately 11 knots - by hoisting the Kona Class flag at the warning signal. Appropriate planning conditions may vary due to wave configurations and currents, and shall be up to the discretion of the RC.....

Everything I have read seems to indicate it is working very well for them
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Old 23rd December 2009, 07:52 AM   #64
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9.0 from 85.1Kg and above

7.4 from 65-85Kg

5.8 for 64.9Kg and down

There are also smaller sails for kid classes.

One board, all conditions and the the weight/sail class appears to make it pretty even.
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Old 24th December 2009, 10:03 AM   #65
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Hi guys,

Been reading this one with interest.

Why don't you just add BOTH the formula and raceboard class?

Some people like raceboards, some people like formula racing. We have an active race series for formula here in Australia with +40 competitors each event and have now included RS:X, Raceboards and BIC Techno in our series events. It's more about the social gathering than the racing anyhow, so the more the merrier in my mind.

Raceboard/Windsurfer OD are the biggest classes sailed in Australia with formula probably coming in afterwards.

I race formula internationally and (as others have suggested) there are huge misconceptions about gear out there. I am just about to start racing the 2010 season with a 3 year old board. Yeap, no interest in buying a new one; the old shape is fine. I'll race that on the pro tour all year. Sure, I have some new sails... but I only need 3 to race the pro tour. In national racing back in Australia I've raced a few events this summer in Australia with only 1 sail from 6-30 knots no problems and only 1 fin. I've also only ever owned one boom. I can't sail two sails at once, so why need a second boom? Save some money for the bar...

Everybody makes comparisons with the professionals. 90% of formula sailors aren't racing the pro tour so why do you have to buy 4 sails and 5 fins just because Steve Allen did?

And the problems with the top guys beating the guys who trained less/less experienced out on the racecourse? In Australia we made a new division called FE+ (yeap, we ripped the name a bit) whereby new comers can start at the same time as everyone but race 1 lap only. It's almost more competitive in this class than the Open fleet nowadays!

Now, Raceboards rock also. Obviously you can get more racing in with the bigger windrange and the cost are dramatically less than formula kit for obvious reasons.

In Australia we start the raceboard/rsx/bic classes a few mins earlier than the formula fleet so we generally all cross the finish line at the same time. If its light wind in the morning we send the raceboard/rsx/bic classes out to race and when the wind picks up in the afternoon we include formula. Simple.

Now at the end of the day's racing there is 50 guys at the bar, instead of just 30 formula sailors because we've combined the classes.

It gives people an opportunity to see all the different windsurfing classes together and compare and make decisions about which pathway of sailing they want to follow in to.

My 0.02c
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Old 8th January 2010, 02:44 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken View Post
What specifically are the no pumping rules for the Kona Class? Is pumping allowed out of jibes and tacks and to catch swells?

There is no such thing as "no pumping". Sailors will find ways to pump and gain an advantage regardless of the rules. The really honest sailors get burned.

The only fair way that gives everyone an equal opportunity is to allow pumping. Yes it can be a lot of work, but we are athletes and we do what has to be done to be competitive. If you are too lazy to pump, don't be unhappy with the results.

I started racing in 1984 and competed in lots of "no pumping" races including the Mistral Worlds in Corpus Christi in the late 80's. Over 200 sailors from around the world and 75%were pumping beyond the rules. If you didn't cheat, you were left in the dust. There were also weight classes.
Can't agree with you there, Ken. I race several classes (one board, several dinghy or yacht) that have restrictions on pumping, and even with Olympians (former AND current) racing at the national titles, there is no cheating at the front end of the fleet and very little anywhere else. Yes, downwind pumping in boards can be very hard to police, which is why one board class (Windsurfer One Designs in Oz) allows downwind pumping but bans upwind pumping, which is easy to spot.

Sure, you could possibly pump very subtly upwind, but such subtle pumping has very little effect and it seems like it could well be harmful.

If you want to get more serious, you can just put some good judges on the course to ensure that people follow the rules. It works well in boat classes like Lasers.

And while I understand the 'we are athletes' line, the fact is that allowing unrestricted pumping tears huge holes in the fleet in many classes (probably not FW or among the RSX and slalom pros). Sure, it is a physical sport - but those who want to propel their way along the water by muscle power can go and race canoes or kayaks.

I'm not too lazy to pump; pumping is my strong point and my other sport is cycle racing, which isn't exactly somewhere you go to hide from exercise. But we have to allow those who don't have the tactical skills but not as much time to train to get in among the action too - it's more fun and it adds to the fleet. And women, older sailors and kids who cannot pump as hard tend to drop back a bit in pumping classes - that's not great for the sport.

I respect your experience, but that was at a time when we were not as aware of the problems that pumping brings, and we were not as experienced at stopping it. It can be done.
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Old 8th January 2010, 05:39 PM   #67
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Dont know too much about it, but it seems to me like you have a race car and you are not allowed to push the gas completely till the end.
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Old 8th January 2010, 07:42 PM   #68
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Dont know too much about it, but it seems to me like you have a race car and you are not allowed to push the gas completely till the end.
Nope, it's more like the way you are not allowed to just grab a soccer ball (football to most people), run down the field and throw it in the goal. Or like the way you're not allowed to move a pawn sideways in chess. Or like the way you can't kick someone in the cobblers in a boxing match. Or like the way there are races for backstroke, breastroke and butterfly when it would be faster if everyone just did freestyle.

Just like any other sport or game, you introduce rules to make sure that the competition tests the things you want it to test, and to ban the things you don't want to do. In this case, some of us want to restrict pumping, because it puts too much emphasis on just one or two aspects (fitness and pumping technique) and too little on 'feel' and tactics.

Oh, and by the way, lots (perhaps all) racing car classes have various restrictions on how much gas you can push through the engine!
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Old 8th January 2010, 10:21 PM   #69
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CT 249, Unregistered,

From Rod R:

"C.2.2 Penalties; A competitor performing repeated rig movements shall be warned by the on-water umpires by means of a yellow flag and penalized with a 360 turn with immediate effect. If the offense is repeated within the same race the competitor shall be given a red flag and disqualified."

So one pump is OK, it's just a matter of judging subjectively what "repeated rig movements" means. This is where I have a problem, who's judging and waiving flags and if there is someone on the water, they can't catch all pumping.

There are many sports where coaches teach and encourage techniques to gain an advantage in violation of the rules. Soccer and American football are a couple with water-polo being at the top of the list. That's how the game is played, get caught and you are penalized, don't get caught and you gain an advantage. In some sports, it is almost impossible to cheat, chess being one, but in many others, it is common place.

I would have no problem with "no pumping" regattas, since I am pretty good at tactics and efficiency on the water. I just don't believe that you can have a regatta with "no pumping" or to be able to police it 100% of the time. My opinion comes from my experiences, but that was over 20 years ago.

While I am one for following the rules since I detest cheating, sometimes the situation calls for stretching the rules to keep up with the competition. I would never be the first to break a pumping rule, but if my competition was doing it, I probably would too.
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Last edited by Ken; 8th January 2010 at 10:23 PM.
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Old 9th January 2010, 01:47 AM   #70
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same debate occured 25 years ago in Open Division II class, as some may remember

initially pumping was forbidden, later this restriction was abandoned, and a wide consensus existed then the former interdiction was useless and baseless

individual results did not change a bit before and after anyway

pumping is simply part of windsurfing techniques, you have to know when and how to, which is not obvious, therefore interesting
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