Apollo fool,,,, - Page 2

Randy · 28th November 2007, 06:26 PM

Great observation Ola. I'm probably proof of your theory and I kind of thought the same thing. I'm about 60 kg, and used formula boards and big sails for recreational sailing. Then Hypersonic with big sails. When Serenity came along, I jumped on it. I was tempted by Apollo as well. Interesting thing is lately, I'm finding that I'm pretty happy on skinny old boards for higher wind sailing. I'm thinking that for more wind, skinny boards are easier to sail (keep on the water) than the newer, wider ones.

Lionell · 29th November 2007, 03:29 AM

well maybe big guys use smaller boards because big (wide) boards also looks dummy. If you for example compare carve 122 vs. 144, 144 looks like a tanker and is also more unstable when the waves gets bigger

Ken · 29th November 2007, 09:57 AM

Lionell,

Those "big guys" don't look like "dummys" when running down wind at 25+ knots of board speed in 1 meter chop hanging on to 9 meter sails in 25 to 30 knots of wind.

That's on a 1 meter wide "tanker" formula board. This type of experience seperates the men from the boys.

The "smaller boards" just reach back and fourth in these conditions and can't handle the serious downwind runs (or upwind). Not totally true, but I think you get my point.

pfaffi · 29th November 2007, 01:33 PM

I remember light wind Formula races where some boys around 40kg competed with us. Of course planing very super super early on 8,5sqm sails but reaching a max speed half of us. So each kg is counting to rise the top speed. Its valid from speed surfing up to the Formula class without an upper limit.

marek · 29th November 2007, 04:08 PM

Hi, just a slightly off-topic question - I understand the upwind advantage of formula (I have FT 148), but I never tried the deep downwind course so dreaded by everyone.

Why it can't be done on a regular, small board (catapult or sinking the tail?) and why Formula is best in downwind?
And what is the general problem with going downwind?

-marek

Ola_H · 29th November 2007, 05:00 PM

I'm no formula sailor, but I rather understoof things the other way around. Formula boards and sails seemingly have a redicoulusly huge wind range, but in the higher part of this range, the baords are virutally impossible to sail in ANYTHING BUT deep downwind or hard upwind.

LK · 29th November 2007, 08:38 PM

I dont think so Ola. FW boards ARE designed to go hard upwind or deep downwind.

Roger · 29th November 2007, 09:43 PM

Hi LK,
Perhaps you misunderstood Ola.
You guys are saying the same thing!
And, Ola is correct.
Ask any top level formula racer where most of the "yard sale crashes" happen.....
yep, when race organizers put in a little reach at the end of the race that's where a majority of the crashes will happen in higher winds.
It's amazing to see sailors than have sailed very high upwind, for miles, into big rollers, and then nearly straight back downwind through those same rollers at incredible speeds and angles with huge sails that need to be trimmed differently for upwind vs downwind, manage to stay on top of their boards with no crashes for around half an hour (upwind and downwind), and then they "blow up" on a short reach across the swells to the finish line.
This happens alot in the races in Corpus Christi and the Gorge where the winds are pretty much side shore and the finish line is parallel to the beach.
Hope this helps,

marek · 30th November 2007, 12:17 AM

OK, but I still don't understand what physics stand behind formula design so that it can sail downwind so well.

I think I understand why it excels upwind (long fin and the size that allows it to hold large sails and prevents the enormous force from the fin to roll the board over).

But why is it also so good in downwind course (comparing to a regular freeride board)? Fin almost not used here, so what else, wide, floaty stern that is easier to stand on?

-marek

P.S. Maybe these questions are weird, but I never tried the deep downwind sailing thus I don't know what it's like, the only think I know is that when it really blows I want to go upwind us much as I can just to slow things down

.

Ken · 30th November 2007, 12:19 AM

Roger has it right.

However, what's missing is that Formula racers rig so that they are FULLY powered for deep down wind runs, which means that they are very overpowerd on reaches and a little overpowerd upwind.

Since a Formula race course is normally up wind and down wind, they rig big. That's why they wipe out on reaches.

On some of those crazy reaches Roger speaks about, I have gone to the chicken strap and luff the sail A LOT trying to make it to the finish line.

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28th November 2007, 06:26 PM	#11
Randy Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 55	Great observation Ola. I'm probably proof of your theory and I kind of thought the same thing. I'm about 60 kg, and used formula boards and big sails for recreational sailing. Then Hypersonic with big sails. When Serenity came along, I jumped on it. I was tempted by Apollo as well. Interesting thing is lately, I'm finding that I'm pretty happy on skinny old boards for higher wind sailing. I'm thinking that for more wind, skinny boards are easier to sail (keep on the water) than the newer, wider ones.

29th November 2007, 03:29 AM	#12
Lionell New Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3	well maybe big guys use smaller boards because big (wide) boards also looks dummy. If you for example compare carve 122 vs. 144, 144 looks like a tanker and is also more unstable when the waves gets bigger

29th November 2007, 09:57 AM	#13
Ken Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas USA Posts: 799	Lionell, Those "big guys" don't look like "dummys" when running down wind at 25+ knots of board speed in 1 meter chop hanging on to 9 meter sails in 25 to 30 knots of wind. That's on a 1 meter wide "tanker" formula board. This type of experience seperates the men from the boys. The "smaller boards" just reach back and fourth in these conditions and can't handle the serious downwind runs (or upwind). Not totally true, but I think you get my point.

29th November 2007, 01:33 PM	#14
pfaffi Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Location: Austria - Lake Neusiedler, closed Vienna Posts: 136	I remember light wind Formula races where some boys around 40kg competed with us. Of course planing very super super early on 8,5sqm sails but reaching a max speed half of us. So each kg is counting to rise the top speed. Its valid from speed surfing up to the Formula class without an upper limit.

29th November 2007, 04:08 PM	#15
marek Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 95	Hi, just a slightly off-topic question - I understand the upwind advantage of formula (I have FT 148), but I never tried the deep downwind course so dreaded by everyone. Why it can't be done on a regular, small board (catapult or sinking the tail?) and why Formula is best in downwind? And what is the general problem with going downwind? -marek

29th November 2007, 05:00 PM	#16
Ola_H TEAM Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,191	I'm no formula sailor, but I rather understoof things the other way around. Formula boards and sails seemingly have a redicoulusly huge wind range, but in the higher part of this range, the baords are virutally impossible to sail in ANYTHING BUT deep downwind or hard upwind.

29th November 2007, 08:38 PM	#17
LK Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 104	I dont think so Ola. FW boards ARE designed to go hard upwind or deep downwind.

29th November 2007, 09:43 PM	#18
Roger Dream Team - School Guru Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2,064	Hi LK, Perhaps you misunderstood Ola. You guys are saying the same thing! And, Ola is correct. Ask any top level formula racer where most of the "yard sale crashes" happen..... yep, when race organizers put in a little reach at the end of the race that's where a majority of the crashes will happen in higher winds. It's amazing to see sailors than have sailed very high upwind, for miles, into big rollers, and then nearly straight back downwind through those same rollers at incredible speeds and angles with huge sails that need to be trimmed differently for upwind vs downwind, manage to stay on top of their boards with no crashes for around half an hour (upwind and downwind), and then they "blow up" on a short reach across the swells to the finish line. This happens alot in the races in Corpus Christi and the Gorge where the winds are pretty much side shore and the finish line is parallel to the beach. Hope this helps,

30th November 2007, 12:17 AM	#19
marek Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 95	OK, but I still don't understand what physics stand behind formula design so that it can sail downwind so well. I think I understand why it excels upwind (long fin and the size that allows it to hold large sails and prevents the enormous force from the fin to roll the board over). But why is it also so good in downwind course (comparing to a regular freeride board)? Fin almost not used here, so what else, wide, floaty stern that is easier to stand on? -marek P.S. Maybe these questions are weird, but I never tried the deep downwind sailing thus I don't know what it's like, the only think I know is that when it really blows I want to go upwind us much as I can just to slow things down .

30th November 2007, 12:19 AM	#20
Ken Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Dallas, Texas USA Posts: 799	Roger has it right. However, what's missing is that Formula racers rig so that they are FULLY powered for deep down wind runs, which means that they are very overpowerd on reaches and a little overpowerd upwind. Since a Formula race course is normally up wind and down wind, they rig big. That's why they wipe out on reaches. On some of those crazy reaches Roger speaks about, I have gone to the chicken strap and luff the sail A LOT trying to make it to the finish line.