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Old 8th January 2008, 03:04 PM   #11
marek
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Well, is the F-type hard to sail comparing to your 145 Carve...
Can't really answer that as I haven't tried the other board, but I'd say if you are talking about serious exploiting the FT I'd say yes, it is considered a more technical board.
It allows for amazing upwind angles.

I tried a 130 or so freeride board ones and it was plug&play comparing to my FT. It has a large, powerful fin, straps are very out and back and it can get pretty handful at chop, unless you have a 10.0 sail which will get you on plane on flat water - with 7.5 and my skills/weight it gets more demanding.


Anyhow I love the board, haven't mastered it yet, but sometimes when I get dialed in it just blasts upwind with great speed and wants to stay on plane all the time. The other freeride board I mentioned felt pretty boring comparing to it.

Just my 2c.

-marek
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Old 16th January 2008, 10:11 PM   #12
Roly Gardner
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Hi Roger, Hi Marek,

Thanks for your thoughts.I suspect I will have to beg a go on one of the guys at my club to see what the differences are between the two boards.Academic to a certain extent as I have a long way to go on the Carve. Last year was my first full season and got planing and beach starting. This year waterstarts and gybing skills I hope! Thats if it ever stops raining and warms up here!

Cheers both.

Roly
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Old 26th February 2008, 06:18 AM   #13
mitchiedog
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Hi Roger
While we are talking Carves here I thought i'd ask a couple questions about my experience with the carve 131. Ive had the board 2 years but feel like its only the last couple of weekends ive started to enjoy it (ie im learning). Part of the problem has been that Ive been sailing it at the upper end of its range (6.0m) and now I have a nice 7.0 North natural freeride sail and its a lot nicer. Still very choppy in these conditions, too much board really. (15-22 knots), stock 48cm fin.
what I've noticed is that when planing I'm having trouble maintaining side/side trim. The windward rail tends to sink a bit. I tell myself that I'm not committing enough to the harness and try to sink into it more, but that seems to kill speed a bit. My ankles start to drag and the result is that the board makes a slow arc to windward where I usually stall and scramble out of harness and footstraps. To combat this I've started to pull my backfoot out of the back strap and place it in front and more centreline. This helps because I can press on my backfoot toes to try and flatten the board off. (not ideal situation though, with foot out of strap). Pushing my front foot away also helps, I guess because it bears off, so the boards gets better speed and lift.
By the way, the mast is set more forward in the track (the board is virtually uncontrollable in centre or back with the 7.0m). Any thing else you suggest to help board trim?
thanks
mike
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Old 26th February 2008, 10:43 AM   #14
mondy
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mitchie:
try moving your harness lines back? if u shorten them too, you'll either ctapult or fly downwind like a rocket! add some mast foot pressure and i don't think u'll round upwind anymore.... don't get scared, lock in , work those abs and unlock ur shoulders! thats my 2 cents, but i might be wrong! with those knots and a 7m, u should be flyng! p.s. i have my mast foot back 80% of the way in the same conditions, not forward, so i hit the chop with the rear part of the board.
once you get the trim right, u turn up and downwind by curling your toes or flattening the board with your feet.
ciao,
mondy
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Old 27th February 2008, 07:05 AM   #15
Roger
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Hi Mitciedog,
What is you weight?
I'm a bit puzzled trying to balance the numbers you've provided us here?
First, where are you placing your mast foot with your 6.0 m2 and 7.0 m2 rigs?
Mondy hit on this, and it could be critical.
What other fins (besides the stock 48 cm Drake) do you have?
At what windspeed do you rig down from your 7.0 m2 to your 6.0 m2?
Are you tuning each sail quite a bit as the wind comes up....i.e. adding more downhaul and adjusting the outhaul on the 7.0 m2 rig as it gets hard to handle and then rigging down to the 6.0 m2 and beginning to tune it with downhaul and outhaul?
Here's what I see:
In 15-18 knots, if you are 90 kg. (198 lbs.) or greater, then you might get away with continuing to sail your 7.0 m2, but you would normally be faster and more comfortable on a 5.5-6.0 m2 rig at about 18 knots..
At a full 20 knots (and up to 22 knots) again, you could sail a 6.0m2, but a 5.0-5.5 m2 would be easier.
So, you can see my dilemma here.
Give me a little more information and maybe I can see where to suggest to you to get a better balance on your Carve 131, but as you suggest, at 18 knots, the Carve 131 is at the very top end of it's range, and you want to sail it up into the low 20's.
As far as the "rounding up" and heading upwind until you stall, that's pretty normal for someone sailing at the very top end of the range of their board and overpowered on the rig.
Why do you keep heading upwind.....?
Mostly it's a "self preservation" issue.
If you do the things necessary to stay on a beam reach (or any steady course that's not right about as high upwind as you can go) the rig continues to load up, the pressure on you (the sailor) increases, and at some point you are sure you will simply "explode:.
But, if you have your harness lines adjusted correctly, you can "ease off" slightly on your sheeting angle (no change in rake of the rig, just a slight "easing" of the sheeting angle to reduce the pressure) and stay on course.
Moving your harness lines back (as Mondy suggests) could be a solution, or it could make your situation worse. It depends on how you have your lines adjusted currently.
Your "analysis" of why you keep tending to go upwind is probably fairly accurate, and as Mondy suggests, part of the solution may be to do the things that increase mast foot pressure (to drive the nose off the wind a bit more) but I get the distinct impression that you are using "heading upwind" as a bit of a "safey valve".
When you get everything balanced, you won't need the "safety valve" as much, and you will be alot more likely to lift your heels, put all your weight on the harness (commitment here), and apply the proper pressure to keep your board heading across the wind, at seemingly ridiculously fast speeds, with complete control, because everything balances.
Hope this helps,

Last edited by Roger; 27th February 2008 at 07:42 AM.
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Old 27th February 2008, 01:54 PM   #16
mitchiedog
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Hi Roger,
yes you are right, I am guilty of using the upwind angle as a bit of a safety valve. The speed has freaked me out! I'm 78kg. The mast is slightly forward of centre in the track with the 7.0. I found the board really difficult to control with it anything but forward of centre, and getting into the straps and harness was difficult since the board would really bounce and not track straight. With the mast more forward it the board settles down, tracks much straighter and gives me a couple extra seconds to get settled in the harness and straps before speed really picks up.
yes Ive been tuning the sail - downhaul max and more ouhaul in the stronger wind. I should emphasise the 22 knots would be the gusts, usually its more aroung 15-18. I have some video that my wife took that I might try and post on you-tube for you. If you look carefully you might be able to see the windward rail down slightly. The video has also confirmed to me that my weight is not nearly as 'locked in" and down as I feel it is. Something to work on.
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Old 27th February 2008, 10:28 PM   #17
Roger
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Hi Mitchiedog,
OK, I understand.
I thiink Mondy really hit on the solutions to your isues here.
From my experiences over the entire range of Carve boards since about 1999, I would say that trying to sail you Carve 131 very near to it's maximum, with the mast foot forward of the center of the track is probably the central issue here.
I'm pretty sure Mondy would agree that sailing a Carve (any Carve) at near max. with the mast foot that far forward is going to do a couple of things, neither of them good, in my opinion.
First, the board is not going to be "free", as the mast foot forward is going to push too much of the board's hull into the water.
Secondly, having the mast foot that far forward is going to result in a "bound/rebound cycle that's very difficult (if not impossible) to control.
My guess (Mondy hit on this as well) is that somehow you are failing to commit your weight onto the harness or not doing it as soon as you get your front foot in the front strap and hooked in with your harness.
This lack of mast foot pressure (MFP) is what allows your board to bounce around so much when you gain a little speed.
The bouncing around affects your ability to steer with normal heel/toe pressure and you compensate by heading upwind which at least gives you a little better directional stability (when you don't have enough MFP).
So, and I realize it's going to be hard to break old habits, I would suggest you start moving the mast foot back a little at a time, try to shorten your harness lines (if they are well balanced now) and adjust your harness line position a bit to get the harness lines to the point where you can remove both hands momentarily and your rig justs stays in place, providing you with steady power.
If your lines are not balanced well, and about the right length, it's nearly impossible for you to relax, and just let the board accelerate.
The faster you go, the more out of balance everything becomes.
When you get things really well balanced, the line length correct for your size and stature, and the mast foot in the board's "sweet spot", things will be a little out of balance as you start to sheet in and rake the rig back, but the balance will improve as you sheet in more, rake back more, and gain more speed.
When you get up to full speed, with full MFP on the board, through the rig, the balance will be near perfect and you will soon have the board going at max. speed, all the time, comfortably.
If you can find a way, I'd really like to see the video, or even still shots of you sailing to check for obvious issues that might be fairly easy for you to correct once they've been identified for you.
Hope this helps,
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Old 28th February 2008, 01:42 AM   #18
Ellen Faller
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One thing that causes the windward rail to sink is too much weight (any weight) on the heels. Sometimes when getting used to the harness, the tendency is to lean back against the harness, but at the same time rocking onto the heels. The more weight on the heels, the more the rail sinks, and you will head upwind. Think about leaning back but putting the pressure through the front half of your foot (in the strap, both straps). You don't have to lift your heels, just don't put any pressure on them. With the weight off the heels and the pressure through the toes against the board, you will be driving the board forward, and can use the toe pressure to do a little foot pressure steering as you describe in post #13. You use the toe pressure with the back foot when you take it out of the back strap and place it on the centerline. That's good. Now do the same with your feet while in the strap. No heel pressure.
good luck and keep up the good work,
Ellen
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Old 28th February 2008, 06:39 AM   #19
mitchiedog
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Thanks Ellen and Roger
heres the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvegJFhmu5Q

not great but you may be able to pick out at the beginning how the board is riding slightly windward rail down, quite common for me. As I approach the shore I sheet out to prepare for landing. the video has revealed for sure I am not committing enough, and you can clearly see where the rig pulls me up on my feet, over the board. I will certainly think about my heels too Ellen and yes in my haste to settle the board down after hooking in, I'm probably leaning out and weighting them too much.

Roger - ok, if you think it will help I'll try again with the mast more back in the track. It seems to make getting hooked in more difficult because as soon the board planes the tail is wagging from side to side.

sailing on this port tack back to the beach was a lot more comfortable than heading out when the chop was head on. Thats was when the carve 131 really felt big. The video doesn't really show just how big the chop was.

My harness lines feel good Roger,I have been able to relax my arms and the rig feels quite balanced with no hand grip for a few seconds. I've worked hard at tuning them. If I could just get the board a bit flatter I would feel much more confident with the back foot in the strap.
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Old 28th February 2008, 07:31 AM   #20
Roger
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Hi Mitchiedog,
OK, now I've seen it.
You are standing up very straight.
It's hard to apply your weight to the rig (through the harness of course) when you are standing up that tall.
Are you using the inboard footstrap positions, or the outboard?
At no time in the short video clip do I see your rig fully raked back and sheeted in.
So, the bouncing I see the board doing is almost surely lack of mast foot pressure.
It's almost like you are controlling the pitch (fore and aft trim) angle of your board from the back of the board, rather than using the mast foot pressure to keep the nose down and allow you to flatten the board out so it will plane more freely.
We'll wait and see what others have to say now that they've seen the video.
Hope this helps,
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