Old 3rd February 2008, 04:51 PM   #111
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A Serenity does plane; the simple facts are that it develops hydrodynamic lift that lifts it up. That's planing. Just because it may not feel like a sinker does when its planing doesn't mean that it's not planing. A hangglider doesn't feel like a 747 but both are still flying.

As Screamer says, the idea that windsurfing is different from boardsailing doesn't fly, because the middle ground is so blurred. Not only Robby Naish can loop a Raceboard; I'm told that the Olympians could do forwards on chop with their IMCOs (I missed that regatta).

A Raceboard or even a Windsurfer can carve gybe, planes at 32 knots + or 25 knots +. A SUP works well in waves; the pics of Antione looping a Kona are well known. The pioneer in modern longboard/SUP surfsailing, Jeff Henderson, says that the SUPs are very similar to an original Windsurfer in many ways, and an original Windsurfer can jump; plane; carve gybe; and sail waves; probably loop if fitted with straps.

In other words, longboards can plane fast, loop, jump, sail waves, carve.....pretty much what a shortboard can do. Wavesailing, slalom sailing and longboard racing aren't that dissimilar; I used to shift from one to the other within a few minutes. Last year alone I shifted from longboards to high-wind slalom in the time it took me to grab a board. In almost every way, the slalom sailing was similar to the sailing I would have had on the longboard. Different sport? No way.

If a board can loop, jump, carve, hit 30+ knots, plane, etc, then where do you draw the line between windsurfing and boardsailing? 3300mm length? 3000mm length? 2800mm length? 2000mm length? If you say "only boards of X length that plane in Y knots are real windsurfers" happens to the board that can do just the same sort of stuff but is X+10mm in length?

The ends of the sport are different but they are a continuum and there's no dividing line between windsurfing (the original sport, in the original spirit) and "modern" windsurfing.

Bill....well, I assume this isn't Bill Hansen as someone said, because he wouldn't be so one-eyed.

What is "living on the edge" about normal shortboard sailing? Is it dangerous? No - how many of your friends have been killed doing it? Does it always require a lot of skill? No. Does it require leading-edge thinking - nope, it's just a 25 year old idea. Does it require high-tech gear? Nope, the stuff the typical board and sail are built out of don't really rate super high in a world of ti, 3dl and high-temp pre-preg carbon over Nomex. Is it novel? Nope, it's just doing what you are told to do by the windsurfing industry.

Is it great? Yeah. Is it fun? Hell yeah. Is the gear good? You betcha.

Is it "living on the edge"? No way.
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Old 3rd February 2008, 05:58 PM   #112
Floyd
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Default Two sports.Call them whatever.

Yet again Bill astounds us all with his incisive informed comments.

Hi C249
Sure there is massive overlap between "Windsurfing" and "Sailboarding" and yes of course there are boards that do both.Lowest volume sinker must displacement sail at some point and roundest Div 2 will eventually plane. (Not sure about Serenity; take your word for it but its only very recently that Cats plane (spitfire). Dart certainly does not. But its OT anyway. (Hull serenity was taken from does not plane with just paddling.Sea kayak will plane down a wave but not self propelled.Planing (IMO) is when upthrust exceeds weight of craft;if we accept any other definition all craft plane.ie they all experience some upthrust.)

Anyway back to point.
Moto "X" motorcycles could get around a Grand prix circuit.(Quick aswell)
Where`s the distinction between a Kart and a Car ??
A rally car is damned quick on a track.
The list goes on.
Dinghies and Yachts ?

However each has its own governing body;identity and followers.
In this way the people promoting their chosen sport do not have to get held back by the inerests (and hiden agendas) of the other so called supporters.

I was involved in Wakeboarding.The moment we managed to get our own identity ;(ie away from just another form of "Water Skiing" the sport moved forward.We could decide what was best for sport ; not some slalom skier.

Look at the compromises (and argument) made to get RSX accepted; and it does not represent the sailing anyone does.(or very few anyhow)
Formula could represent "Windsuring"(ie essentialy designed to plane)
Old Div 2 (or Raceboards) represent "Sailboarding"(Yes I know rounded hulls do plane but are essentialy designed for efficiency in Displacement mode. (Which Formula certainly isnt)

Yes a good wavesailor will be good on a Div2. Just like a good rally driver would be good in F1.
Motor sport has diversified into loads of distinct sports.(Which it wasn`t originally)
This has helped the sports develop by their own design and not paying lip service to others.

We are involved in at last two distinct sports.Probably more !

It would help development of sport (especially part of spectum you are promoting) if it had distinct and self governing /promoting areas.

Div 2 racing is further removed from wavesailing than F1 is from Rallycross.Yet we expect both sports to be promoted in same magazines by same people and same buying public purchase mags (etc). Why ????
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Old 3rd February 2008, 06:04 PM   #113
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BTW
I broke my neck wavesailing !!!
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Old 4th February 2008, 12:17 AM   #114
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Serenity isn`t dsigned for planing.
Have a read of
http://www.powermultihulls.com/magaz...or%20plane.htm
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Old 4th February 2008, 12:53 AM   #115
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Hi Floyd,

Your two sports focus does have some merit, particularly since it gathers folks together with like outlooks and interests. Yet honestly, I tend to doubt that the "sailboarding" side it will develop a strong movement on its own. Certainly, if it did happen to blossum with the clear strength of numbers, you would be able to confirm it through their own specialized publications.

I'm afraid as things stand right now, that the non-planing side to the sport of windsurfing is essentially doomed to trying to get the attention and respect of the larger more powerful planing side of the sport. Not very rewarding for the "sailboarding" side, as evidenced by C249's strong feelings of frustration. While I would never seriously rag on the non-planing scene, and I never really have, it's clear that some will, as seen here in this thread.

With the introduction and strong growth of kiting, I kind of understand how C249 might feel, as virtually all my old windsurfing friends totally abandoned windsurfing for kiting. I do have to take a ribbing at times, but that often comes with the territory of being a bit different than the majority. Fortunately, the greatest majority of folks out there that share the wind are respectful and are not rude and devisive in nature.

Of course, there will always be this feeling that my side of things is the best out there, so we must all temper our sensitivity at times when some folks get too carried away. Frankly, I think that it builds character to perservere with your dedication and strength of purpose as an individual, even if you happen to be alone at times.
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Old 4th February 2008, 05:38 AM   #116
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Lightwind windsurfing may never be appealing in places like West Aust, Maui, Canary Is, but those places are not the majority of the world, what about China, India, with light winds most of the time, and their populations, and increasing wealth, lightwind windsurfing could be huge. A bit of lateral thinking here guys, the world doesn't revolve around what we do, we are a small minority who are a bit obsessed with ourselves.

The future is about China and India, Starboard, get onto it, get your 5 and 10 yearplans working, focus on light winds, and china and india, and you will be one of the biggest sport companies in the world.
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Old 4th February 2008, 07:28 AM   #117
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Yes never thought about China or India, bit of a prejudice I geuss, with their growing affluence and increasing middle-classes, could be ideal markets???? What do others think? Is Starboard thinking about these markets?
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Old 4th February 2008, 03:41 PM   #118
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WS is decreasing. Tennis has very rich and powerfull ambasadors. Soccer has. Windsurfing hasn't persons on media who signd huge contracts, are earning a lot from windsurfing. WS isn't sign of success.
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Old 4th February 2008, 08:24 PM   #119
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( I have only read some of this thread, so aplogies if this has been repeated)
As a long term windsurfer, I'm now doing more kiting than ever, but will not sell all my windsurf kit as I enjoy both. I was able to learn kitesurfing much quicker than windsurfing, ok some advantages of sailing did help, but you can be kiting after hours/days, whereas windsurfing can take much much longer to grasp.
I see many schools will old equipment teaching beginners- narrow, tippy boards and poor sails - some are even old triangle type ones.
I'm totally sure if they were on modern kit, they would learn quicker and would probably take up the sport.
Perhaps someway to fund beginner baords to schools, maybe through a government grant/lottery deal, would really help to get people into our sport.
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Old 4th February 2008, 08:27 PM   #120
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Been reading this thread all morning.Loads of good insights but would like to add;

a) Starboard have been more responsible than anyone for decline in displacement sailing ! For last 20 years (??) they`ve been working at (and succesfully) lowering the planing threshold.

b) #B have never built Div 2 or any boards aimed specifically at non-planing racing.They put their efforts into wide planing boards ; a design which is blatantly alien to efficiency under planing threshold.(Non-planing any raceboard (even from 25 years ago) would easily beat Formula.Hows that supporting entire spectrum of sport ???

c) Movement of sailors to Formula decimated most other racing.(Which #B actively supported ???)

d) Serenity is SB`s first attempt at non-planing displacement sailing.

e) Perhaps boards designed specifically to excell in non-planing.(Sailboards as called on here) should have stamped their mark 20 years ago.The time for the separate sport has long gone.Dedicated racing fleets from 20 years ago should have had some security rather than been at call of "marketeers" changing designs for short term big increases in fleets.
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