Old 18th September 2008, 08:15 PM   #21
marek
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Originally Posted by Roger View Post
Hi Marek,
OK, let's back up a bit here.
What is the wind speed when you are trying to sail you Carve 111?
What sail size are you using?
What is "downwind" that makes you so focused on sailing upwind as soon as possible?
Why are you not jibing the Carve 111? (Assuming that you are jibing the F-Type).
[...]
I think you sail on a small lake, right?
[...]
What size is your "oversize" fin. Is it a vertical pointer or a curvy freeride fin?
Hi Roger.

Thanks for your quality response.

That other day I sailed my C111 I can tell you exactly the wind speed as there was a guy with a meter - it was 15 knots (probably more in the gusts) and I was on my 7.5 3-cam, free-race Gaastra GTX (mast foot all the way forward minus 1 cm - perhaps that was the problem).

The fin is 380 Drake Freeride (curvy).

This is a small, round lake (so at every "unsuccessful" run I'm left with less and less space until I have to do walk of shame). I seem to loose most of the ground by trying to get on plane (when I have to go downwind in the gust, pump a bit and see if I can get on plane).

I'm not all that great with jibing on my F-type so I don't even try to jibe on C-111 (perhaps I should ). Tacking is obviously ok on FT and seems impossible to me on C-111.
Also, my back foot rises fountains of water when I try to enter the back footstrap which does not help, neither.

In overall C-111 feels great when on plane in both footstraps (it just slides through chop so safely, comparing to FT which is a tough ride at higher speeds and chop), but general handling is very difficult to me (uphauling, getting into the back FS, tacking).
Also, comparing to other boards I tried I don't have problems with rounding up on this board.

-marek

Last edited by marek; 18th September 2008 at 08:19 PM.
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Old 19th September 2008, 08:39 AM   #22
Roger
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Hi Marek,
Well, putting the mast foot all the way forward on a Carve 111 is about the same as dropping the anchor.
No wonder you can't get the C111 going.
For a 7.5 m2 rig, I'd suggest starting with the mast foot about 3/4 of the way back and maybe you will end up with it even a little further back than that.
I hope you aren't putting the mast foot all the way forward on your F-Type, as that would effectively kill alot of your performance on that board as well.

What led you to put the mast foot all the way forward...?
The only boards that need to be trimmed all the way forward are older formula boards with 10.0-12.5 rigs.
Virtually all other boards sail much more freely with the mast foot further back (sailor weight and sail size can have a small impact here).
Sounds like you've been trying to get the Carve 111 going, but left the emergency brake on.
15 knots....85 Kg. sailor weight....Carve 111.... you should be off on a plane with a couple of pumps.

Try and find a 42 cm vertical fin. This will help alot with early planing on the C-111.

If your back foot is dragging when you go for the footstrap, you don't have enough speed yet.
I think you still have a tendency to move back too soon and go for the rear footstrap way to early.
Let to board get up onto a plane before you even think about putting your back foot in.
Perhaps your board is "tail dragging" to some degree and this just makes getting on plane even harder.

It seems that you have a bit more to learn about fore and aft trim.
You do need to progressively move back, but only enough to get the nose up slightly to get the planing surfaces at the optimum angle to promote early planing.
Then you head off slightly, pump a bit and the board begins to light up.
At this point you can have your front foot in the front strap, but your back foot will be
in the center of the board and in front of the rear footstraps (how far in front I cannot tell you, but it will be somewhere between midway between the front and back straps, and the front of the back straps.
Once you find the "secret spot" the board will plane off easily and then you can gain some more speed and get it fully planing.
Then think about getting into the back strap.
If you move back too soon or too much, you just about eliminate any chance that your board will plane.
Combine this with pushing the nose down and making the board "plow" due to the mast foot being too far forward and you have the perfect recipe for making a easy to plane board into a very difficult to plane board.
Hope this helps,
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Old 19th September 2008, 02:24 PM   #23
marek
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Hi Roger.

Great to read your posts in the morning .

As far as the mast foot is concerned here is some information which setup I use and why.

F-Type
- 9.8: all the way forward minus 1 cm
- 7.5: all the way back + 1 cm

C-111
7.5: all the way forward minus 1 cm
6.0: middle

- Generally my logic is that max. sail size for a given board requires max. forward position in the mast foot (MF), and minimal sail size requires max. backward position.
Seems that this logic is wrong, no? ;-).

Additionally to that:
- I set the MF on C-111 so much forward to prevent it from rounding up when I have 7.5 (but I could work on that)
- FT with 9.8 and my MF setup feels most comfortable in tougher conditions (perhaps in lighter winds I could move it backwards, but I've heard somewhere, that in very light winds it is good to have it forward a bit to increase MFP). Generally I think I could use any setup with my FT since I feel comfortable on it - please advice.

I seem to be lost on which MF setup to use with my 2 boards and 3 sails:

FT-148: 7.5, 9.8 (plus what to do when under/overpowered)
Carve-111: 6.0, 7.5(plus what to do when under/overpowered)

Can you help?

-marek

P.S. Of course I remember you were advising to move MF all the way back and move it forward gradually until the board stops tailwalking, but can you at least give me your idea on how the MF should be set in the above combinations? (because it is not very easy for me to decide when the board is both easy to plane and under good control at the same time)

Last edited by marek; 19th September 2008 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 19th September 2008, 09:02 PM   #24
Roger
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Good Morning Marek,
OK, I see your logic, but it does not match up very well with my experience.
You weigh 85 Kg. (187.4 lbs) and I weigh slightly less, but my weight has increased over the last few years from about 73 Kg. (160 lbs.) and I have not had to make any major adjustments in mast foot positioning.
Let me explain my logic on this and see if you can understand why putting the mast foot way forward on almost any board is not a good thing to do unless you are racing at the highest levels on a formula board and you want to keep the nose down and get the absolute best VMG upwind.
You've seen my suggestions on starting with the mast foot near the back of the slot and keeping it as far back as you can and still maintain control.
I would guess that you have never had the conditions where you really experienced "tailwalking".... right.
So until you see what that's about (tailwalking) you will not understand the sudden "loss of control" that requires moving the mast foot a little forward to regain control.
Here's the "phsyics":
Mast foot back allows more of the length of the board to come out of the water when planing on smooth water. If you have really flat smooth water, and good winds (perhaps you get something like this on your small round lake as there's not much "fetch" for the wind to work on making waves on the top of the water) you can allow as much of the board as possible out of the water by moving the mast foot to the back (rear) of the mast adjustment slot.
The board will plane it's fastest with this setting, right up to the point that the boardspeed exceeds the optimum speed for the fin.
The board will all of a sudden "hunt around, jump up out of the water a little, and generally act like a hooked marlin that gets up on it's tail and shakes it's head trying to shake the hook from it's mouth.
This is a control issue and the best way to "settle things down" is to move the mast foot forward slightly in the mast slot. ( 1-3 cm increments here)
What this does is move the mast foot pressure forward slightly and this changes the fore/aft Angle of Attack (AOA) of your boards planing surfaces.
Slightly less AOA results in slighty more of the bottom of the board being engaged with the water's surface, and a slight increase in the overall hull drag.
This slows you down slightly, and keeps you in control.
To go really fast, you need to be right on the edge of being out of control, so it takes a few adustments of the mast foot to find the "sweet spot" where you have "just enough"
control and can comfortably attain max. speed.
You can change the point/speed that your board "tailwalks" (if you want to go faster on the same board) by reducing your fin size and using a well designed slalom or speed type fin (usually a nearly vertical foil in a very small size).
So, putting the mast foot forward of the "sweet spot" for your particular board/rig/fin combination is simply slowing you down and making every thing more difficult as the board is basically "dragging" due to more than the necessary amount of hull in the water.
When you add chop to the mix, you may need to adjust the mast foot a little more forward, but be aware that you can put the mast foot in a spot that creates some sort of "harmonic" with the chop on the bottom of your board and get into a "bound and rebound" cycle that can be almost impossible to control. Moving the mast foot back a little more usually stops the harmonic and you can go over the chop pretty smoothly.
Having mast foot pressure too far forward in chop really slows the board down and really pounds the sailor as the board has to "slam into" each bit of chop and the "entry point" where the board first touches the chop is forward in the flatter part of your board instead of further back where there's some "V" that can soften the ride.
So, to take your sailing to the next level, I would suggest that you start out
"experimenting" on your F-Type because you are already comfortable on it and have lots of Time on the Water(TOW).
Try moving the mast foot nearly all the way back (if you have the std. twist plate or twist plate washer (11.5-12.5 cm) move it back until the edge of the twist plate/washer is almost covering the serial number. (I forget exactly where I used to put my mast foot on the F-Types, but I know it was well behind the center of the slot).
Take your 9.8 m2 rig out and see if you don't go a bit faster and the board doesn't ride a bit smoother.
Then move it back a couple of cm and see how that feels.
Then move it forward 2 or 3 cm (ahead of your first setting) and see how that feels.
When the board jumps onto a plane pretty much effortlessly, and goes fast and smooth giving you pretty effortless control, you are zeroing in on the sewwt spot.
When the wind comes up enough that you need the 7.5 m2 rig, start out with the mast foot at the same "sweet spot" you had for the 9.8 m2 and then do the same experiment.
Then do the same with your 7.5 m2 on the Carve 111.
I think you will be amazed at how much faster they go and how much easier both boards jump onto a plane.
Hope this helps,
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Old 20th September 2008, 12:21 AM   #25
marek
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Thanks a lot, Roger, I really appreciate the time you spend on helping me.
I'll try the new setup tomorrow (we have local regatta, probably not the best moment for experiments but what the hell ).

Take care,

-marek
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Old 20th September 2008, 01:54 AM   #26
Roger
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Hi Marek,
You can learn a whole lot at a regatta!
If there is some other sailor/competitor there with the same board, approx. same sailor size and rig size, check out there they have their mast foot positioned.
I'll be very surprised if it's all the way forward (unless it's a full on formula board in really powered to overpowered conditions).
You won't be able to match a formula board with your 9.8 and the F-Type, even if you try very hard.
The formula board will have a larger rig/fin and is designed to go really high upwind and really low/deep off the wind.
The F-type won't go as high or fast and won't go as low and stay on plane due to the design of the board.
If your regatta course has more reaching marks than upwind/downwind marks you might have a slight chance to hang with the formula boards.
Since you only have limited distance you can go on your small round lake, you won't have much advantage over the longboards in the fleet unless they choose to short tack straight up to the windward mark.
Try the mast foot back at least to the middle and see if your board doesn't plane sooner.
I think you'll find another "gear" to your boards.
You've been holding your boards in 4th gear (with the mast foot so far forward) but they both came equipped with 5 speed gearboxes so you need to shift into that higher gear and really take off.
Nicest thing about a regatta is that you start with the rest of the fleet and you can watch/imitate what the faster sailors do and learn alot in a short amount of time.
If you see someone who usually places at the top of the fleet and on a similar type of board and rig, get behind them and follow their every move. See how long you can hang with them.
Strategy is important, but it only applies if the faster sailor is on similar equipment.
Don't do like I once did and follow the longboards off the wind (I was on a Formula 155).
They cruised along in displacement mode and I followed when I should have been sailing my own race and stayed planing at much higher speed to reach the finish line sooner but having traveled a greater distance.
Hope this helps,
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Old 24th September 2008, 06:22 PM   #27
marek
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Hi Roger.

I used your advice even more and set up mast foot all the way back -1 cm (FT/9.8) . The board felt really light (conditions were very underpowered though) and was easier to get on plane while a little more nervous in shlog mode (but that doesn't matter). I'll see how that works in higher winds.

The regatta course was typical "8" slalom course (2 buoys on a beam reach), about 50 people, very underpowered conditions, with shifting wind direction.
I finished all the 3 races and was classified as 36th .

For me the greatest problem was to get the clean wind after start and due to the weak, gusty wind I was often afraid to "invest" some upwind ground to go downwind and pump trying to get on plane - if I were doing that too much I would have to tack to get upwind from the buoy. The result was that I was planing only in solid gusts when everybody else was planing on a standard gear, too, but I'm thinking that probably I could get on plane more often using my gear (if I had cleaner wind and could pump better).
I find that even with the long fin and various techniques, FT is less efficient in shlogging upwind/on a beam reach than a longer, standard freeride board with smaller fin.

Anyway it was a great experience (my third regatta). The only problem over here is that my FT is often not allowed as being too wide (80cm max, they made an exception for me this year) and in typical forumula regatta I probably don't stand a chance like you said (and this kind of regatta is less popular, too).
Ideally I would like to have a board which can be used with my 9.8, get on plane as early as FT, go upwind almost as good and be not more than 80cm wide.
As I don't plan to get a new board anytime soon I'll probably try to get better on my C-111 and use this board in regattas.

-marek
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Old 24th September 2008, 08:07 PM   #28
Roger
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Hi Marek,
Good Show!
I do not understand the "width <= 80 cm rule" for your races.
Never heard of anything like that before.
Do they have "classes"?
With 50 sailors I would think so.
If you want to do well in these races, look around for an older Sonic W75.
That'a a board that truly rips. Won't plane as early as your F-Type, but it meets the
rules better.
Beyond that, maybe something like a Rio M or Phantom would work in your situation.
Do they have a sail size rule also?
Maybe a larger rig would help get you going sooner.
Also, keep working on your pumping skills.
Sounds like you are still "following the fleet".
If there are smaller narrower short boards (without centerboards) doing well in your races (you seem to want to use your C-111 and that would not like your 9.8 very well,
and it reqiures alot more wind to get planing) then take a look at what the others are sailing and maybe we can suggest a Starboard that would do better for you.
Are you saying that the sailors at the front of the fleet are on 80 cm wide shortboards, but are not planing at all, but beating you on your F-Type?
This is very puzzling to me?
Also, it sounds like your "slogging" skills could use some work as well.
You should be able to stand off center on the F-Type and "bank" or rail your board and
stay with other shortboards pretty easily. You won't be able to stay with longboards (with centerboards) short taking upwind, and not on a beam reach in less than planing conditions, but I think you would be able to stay with short boards on a figure 8 course.
Is this course laid out truly across the wind with the pins (buoys) parallel with the starting line so you sail across the line and then up to one or the other of the buoys, then figure 8 around the buoys, then head back down to the start finish line, or some other setup?
If the bouys are truly "across the wind" and you are on a beam reach (about the same as most "back and forth" windsurfing) I would think you would be doing quite a bit better on the F-Type and perhaps this is why they don't allow wider or formula type boards.
Hope this helps,
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Old 24th September 2008, 09:29 PM   #29
marek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger View Post
Hi Marek,
I do not understand the "width <= 80 cm rule" for your races.
Never heard of anything like that before.
[...]
Are you saying that the sailors at the front of the fleet are on 80 cm wide shortboards, but are not planing at all, but beating you on your F-Type?
This is very puzzling to me?
They limit board's width on this regatta to prevent people with large, expensive Formula kits to outperform the regular freeride crowd. They also limit the sail size to 10.0.
Anyhow, the winners are usually guys with tons of skills on some random gear, smaller sails (and usually small, freeride or freestyle boards) or they even come without their own gear and borrow some just before the regatta and still beat everybody off. They start well, quickly get on plane with pumping and stay ahead of the crowd all the time...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger View Post
If the bouys are truly "across the wind" and you are on a beam reach (about the same as most "back and forth" windsurfing) I would think you would be doing quite a bit better on the F-Type and perhaps this is why they don't allow wider or formula type boards.
This is "across the wind" race just like you said (however the wind is pretty shifty and often you are more on a close reach than on the beam reach).

-marek
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Old 25th September 2008, 07:55 AM   #30
Roger
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Hi Marek,
Hmmm.... maybe you better not get alot better.
They are letting you sail your "sorta" formula board (the F Type) very graciously, and as soon as your skills improve and you start moving up in the fleet, they may become a bit
less "gracious".
But I still fail to see how smaller narrower boards are sailing away from you.
Have you ever considered that your F-Type, once planing, will pretty much leave smaller narrower boards (except maybe the Hypersonic and Isonics) (esp. Freeride and freestyle boards) in your wake upwind.
You are close to the max. sail size, so unless you have some rigging issues, I would expect you to move toward the front of the fleet pretty quickly as your skills and tactics improve.
Gotta get beyond your fear of heading off downwind a little to lite up your boards.
Can't do much in slog mode, but slog.
Get the board planing and you can go much higher and faster.
Hope this helps,
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