Old 10th October 2008, 10:19 AM   #11
bazza
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Thanks again Roger. I do have an adjustable outhaul and do rig it for maximum power. I do not have the footstraps in the outer positions at the rear but rather a single in the center. I found that if I weight the windward rail I sink the board to that side and everything bogs down. When planing on a broad reach or upwind in heavier winds I just put my back foot on the outside edge of the board.

I have always used a 70cm fin and recently purchased the 78cm one that Bill Kline told me you had on demo. I could order an 85cm model but the price is prohibitive.

You have made me realize that I need to practice my pumping technique. Thanks for that. I'd love to meet you at one of your demo sessions. Will you ever make it to the Pacific Northwest? I live in the Vancouver, BC area.

Thanks again Roger. I appreciate your teachings/
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Old 10th October 2008, 02:31 PM   #12
marek
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Originally Posted by bazza View Post
Thanks again Roger. I do have an adjustable outhaul and do rig it for maximum power. I do not have the footstraps in the outer positions at the rear but rather a single in the center. I found that if I weight the windward rail I sink the board to that side and everything bogs down.
Ts, tss, tssss I hear Roger coming to teach you know how you should keep you weight on the rig via the harness and why you should move your straps all the way out/back to get better control and upwind performance.


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When planing on a broad reach or upwind in heavier winds I just put my back foot on the outside edge of the board.
Which means you should move your back footstrap right there .
Been there, tried that. Sailing in back foot out of the footstrap comparing to being comfortable in both straps is like comparing flying the kite to jet figher ;-). In any wind, being in both straps automatically sets you in a correct position to the board and rig and gives you best control possible.

-marek
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Old 10th October 2008, 08:36 PM   #13
Roger
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Hi bazza and Marek,
Hey marek, you can have my job as you are almost totaly correct here. (Just kidding).
Only thing is that in bazza's case we have to consider his weight, and even with the
11.0 m2 Retro it's going to be difficult for him to get enough power in the rig to support his weight.
I agree that putting the rear footstrap outboard would improve speed, control, and his ability to stay on plane and gain more speed which ramps up the apparent wind and may result in the rig having the power to support his weight, but he's not there yet.
Placing his back foot out by the rail is a strong step in the right direction.
Maybe the best next move would be to put the footstrap outboard, but learn to keep his back foot a little more inboard and out of the strap while getting on plane, then when everything is fully up to speed slide the back foot out and into the footstrap.
It could simpy be a "patience" issue.
I seem to remember that you (Marek) were super amxious to jump back and into the footstraps on your F-Type when you were first getting going. Do I remember correctly?
So, back to my "lecture" on moving back and then outboard "progressively" at a rate that supports continuous "accelleration" of the board which results in a continuous increase in the rig's power and ability to support the sailor.
So, bazza, it sounds like you are headed in precisely the right direction, but you need to work on "feeling" what the board is telling you (even your large fairly heavy Start) so you can move back to the optimum position to pump onto a plane, then when your board "lights up" begin to move even further back and eventually outboard.
Be patient, especially in marginal planing conditions. Even lightweights (< 80 Kg) have to learn to feel when it's time to move back more and finally outboard more as in really marginal conditions it can be super frustrating because you are right on the bubble to getting fully "lit up" but anything you do seems to slow you back down off the plane.
When you can feel the subtle little differences that the board is telling you, you can use them to gage when to move back more, or outboard more.
It's really an experience and time on the water thing, right Marek?
I'd love to visit Vancouver, BC again, but the only time I was there it was pretty cold.
If you ever get to Cape Hatteras, I'd love to meet you and work with you to get beyond where you seem to be "stuck" right now. Unfortunately I have no plans for demos in your area at the present time.
Hope this helps,
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Old 11th October 2008, 03:07 AM   #14
marek
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Originally Posted by Roger View Post
[...]
Only thing is that in bazza's case we have to consider his weight, and even with the 11.0 m2 Retro it's going to be difficult for him to get enough power in the rig to support his weight.
I agree that putting the rear footstrap outboard would improve speed, control, and his ability to stay on plane and gain more speed which ramps up the apparent wind and may result in the rig having the power to support his weight, but he's not there yet.
Placing his back foot out by the rail is a strong step in the right direction.
Maybe the best next move would be to put the footstrap outboard, but learn to keep his back foot a little more inboard and out of the strap while getting on plane, then when everything is fully up to speed slide the back foot out and into the footstrap.
It could simpy be a "patience" issue.
I seem to remember that you (Marek) were super anxious to jump back and into the footstraps on your F-Type when you were first getting going. Do I remember correctly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger View Post
So, back to my "lecture" on moving back and then outboard "progressively" at a rate that supports continuous "accelleration" of the board which results in a continuous increase in the rig's power and ability to support the sailor.
So, bazza, it sounds like you are headed in precisely the right direction, but you need to work on "feeling" what the board is telling you (even your large fairly heavy Start) so you can move back to the optimum position to pump onto a plane, then when your board "lights up" begin to move even further back and eventually outboard.
Be patient, especially in marginal planing conditions. Even lightweights (< 80 Kg) have to learn to feel when it's time to move back more and finally outboard more as in really marginal conditions it can be super frustrating because you are right on the bubble to getting fully "lit up" but anything you do seems to slow you back down off the plane.
When you can feel the subtle little differences that the board is telling you, you can use them to gage when to move back more, or outboard more.
It's really an experience and time on the water thing, right Marek?

Hi guys.

I was thinking about this post quite for a while (I really enjoy this forum I must say) and I'll try to give you my point of view (as an intermediate beginner now and total beginner back in the days):

- yes, I was anxious to get into both straps and the reason number one was: catapults. I don't know if bazza has this problem, but for me riding the board with my back foot out of the strap and on the rail (thus gaining more and more speed rapidly) and then fighting to get it into the back strap was a stressful time with a lot of violent flights over the handlebars.
TOW (time on water) partially solved this problem like Roger predicted, but also tunning my straps as they were twisted.

- since now I am way more accustomed to the speed I can stay longer out of the back strap without fear of being catapulted, which is a good thing in marginal (low) winds as (just like Roger sais) you need the board to really get on plane before jumping into the back FS. (I agree it is easy to ruin everything if you jump back to early)

- I was using the back FS very occasionally when I moved straps from their middle to outboard/back position and it did not make it really easier nor more difficult to get into the straps. But the difference in control was huge - the back foot was finally not sliding deeper and deeper into the strap when I was pushing the fin - instead I was really pushing the rail and the fin which felt great!

I sail a lot in light winds with my 9.8 and for me crucial things are:
- keeping the board flat at all cost (using the harness to transfer the weight onto the rig and back foot to help keeping the board flat)
- having the boom high (almost as high as the cut in the sail allows [i am 186 cm]) - this help to keep your weight off the board
- having proper (not too small) downhaul and almost zero outhaul (I experimented and less then proper downhaul does not do any good to me in light winds) which maximizes you rig's power
- when on plane and in both straps try to keep the windward rail slightly higher (lift with your front foot), also control the wind and bear off in the luls to stay on plane (also bear off to get on plane in the first place)
- combine all of this with pumping (which I am still not good at, but I find that pums must be done together with sliding the board forward with my feet)

From my observations technique is the key to everything; I often see people on plane on smaller rigs, older, narrower boards and some of them are heavier than me, and even then they are planing and I am still shlogging . Oh well, I'll learn one day, too.

Good luck bazza and thanks for your help Roger.

-marek

Last edited by marek; 11th October 2008 at 03:12 AM.
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Old 12th October 2008, 05:39 AM   #15
bazza
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At this point I only have 3 straps insalled on my Start. One in the center rear and 2 front ones that are mounted at the "beginner" position. When I'm in them and planing I have only once not been able to keep the board level by lifting my toes upward, and hold the windward rail down, and that is when I moved my back foot out of the strap and to the edge of the board. I have thought that I am just too heavy to use the outside strap positions. I see now that I will need to sit in my harness better to take the weight off my feet.
Maybe I should keep the 3 straps where they are and mount 4 new ones in the outboard positions so that I'll have the best of all worlds!!!!
Thanks again for all of your teachings.
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Old 12th October 2008, 06:12 AM   #16
Roger
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Hi Bazza,
I must have been doing these forums for too long or something....duh!
If you have your footstraps that far forward (the beginner positions) or even the intermediate positions, it's no wonder you are having issues with getting on plane.
I never thought to ask.....double duh!
Just 4 footstraps is plenty, having them forward gets you nothing.
If you stay that far forward, your board can never really free up and plane.
Look at where the water exits from under the board when you do plane.
It should be well behind the the beginner footstrap positions approaching the advanced
footstrap positions.
Where do you run your mast foot?
Hope this helps,
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Old 12th October 2008, 06:56 AM   #17
bazza
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My mast is about center in the track. I used to think that heavy guys should have it further forward but I was told that center was better.

I have gotten into the habit of getting into the rear strap early (even when not planing) because it is in the center of the board and gives me a secure feeling. My front foot is in front of the strap (I am 6'4" with 36" pant inseam so this is not a "stretch" for me). When I do get going I then slip my front foot into the strap. I believe that the common practice is to get into the front strap first but because my technique hasn't been proper that tends to have the board head up into the wind and/or stall.
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Old 12th October 2008, 10:34 AM   #18
Roger
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Hi Bazza,
OK, now we are getting into the real issues here.
I'll "sleep on it" and give you a better answer in the morning.
Yes, I can see some real technique issues here that are stalling you at your
current level.
Weight too far forward on the board, getting into the back footstrap first.....
yep, we have some work to do!
Roger
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Old 12th October 2008, 09:01 PM   #19
johnk
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Hi Roger,

As you are responding to Bazza's inquiry, could you please elaborate further on foot strap position relative to early planning? On my N'Trance, I have been sailing with them in the intermediate position (mounted near the tail of the board, but further inboard). I'm guessing that moving the straps and subsequently our stance further outboard will power up the sail greater than with the inboard straps.

Thanks,
John
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Old 13th October 2008, 10:48 AM   #20
bazza
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Quote:
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Hi Bazza,
OK, now we are getting into the real issues here.
I'll "sleep on it" and give you a better answer in the morning.
Yes, I can see some real technique issues here that are stalling you at your
current level.
Weight too far forward on the board, getting into the back footstrap first.....
yep, we have some work to do!
Roger
Hello again Roger. I should rectify an error. Yesterday I said that I have the front straps in the beginner position. I checked my board and found that they are in the "intermediate position" which is about 4 inches further forward from the outboard position and slightly further inboard. I'm looking forward to your advice.
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