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Old 11th October 2008, 01:08 AM   #11
jogi1111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mim View Post
I am not a leightweight but i really have to say that to combine the right board with an appropriate sail size is much better idea than trying to convince that 9qm is good on 100liters.
Hi Michael,

you got me totally wrong. I do not try to say, that it's best to go out with a too big sail on a too small board. No question: the appropriate sail on the appropriate board with an appropriate fin - that's best, no question

All what I like to discuss is the affect, that the sailors weight does have an influence on the sailrange of a board.

Why do I like to discuss that (and find a proper scientific explanation for it) ?

I think, people should know, that their weight (and of course their ability to sail, the spot, the type of sail and so on; see above) do have an influence on the sailrange of a board.

I often can hear people complain, that they were fooled by the manufacturer, 'cause the sailrange he promised, could not be sailed. Mostly it's about the biggest sail of the sailrange and the surfer is of heavy weight or a light surfer, having trouble, using the smallest recommended sail. Big surprise ?

Did you get, what I mean ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mim View Post
Use your boards with whatever sail you want and we all will sailing with rigth combos.
I've 13 boards and even more sails here - and be sure, most of the time, I have the perfect fitted combo out there sailing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Per View Post
I'm 95 kgs (+100 dressed up). On my S-type 115 I could quite easily carry a 4.7 wave sail in close to 30 knots of wind and have fun. Few 65 kg sailors would find that combo useable. The board would simply get airborne due to their less weight.
Exactly - that's it !!!!!


Cheers Jogi
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Old 11th October 2008, 02:27 AM   #12
mim
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Hi Jogi,

no offence, from time to time there are threads from peaple that put here some kind of statement and are not open for discusion at all.

What I have to say to this topic:
I would reformulate what you say...lighter peaople are able to maintain smaller boards in light wind close to the planning treashold. It means even if you take 9sqm or more on 100liters board you can handle it...but it is not connected to the actual size/max recommended size ratio. It is more the weight to board volume ratio.

You are probably talking about the light wind...on the other hand...at a high wind, overpowered condition (letīs say with the biggest recommended sail) a heavy guy (100+kg) will be better on the same board than you...able to manage the sail size in the strong wind and control the board better , you be faster on plane probably but finally on the max speed he will beat you.

I just wanted to say this.
For me this discusion is meaningless, becasue:

1. if you have a bigger board as an option it is always better to get a board and sail, that fit somewhere in the middle of the sail range for the current wind condition.

2. if you have not such a board or the wind is too light you will be fighting anyway, whatever combo you will take.

Sorry I just do not see the point.
But at least it is nice to talk about the gear, setup etc...
Have fun,
ciao Michal.
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Old 11th October 2008, 04:13 AM   #13
jogi1111
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Hi Michael,

Quote:
Originally Posted by mim View Post
it is always better to get a board and sail, that fit somewhere in the middle of the sail range
Absolutely accurate !

But what is the sail range of a board ?
If you are average weighted, you just have to take a look at the catalog
But the others ... ? They should read this discussion first

Quote:
Originally Posted by mim View Post
Sorry I just do not see the point.
Let's have an example: (Sail range data from 2007)
S-Type 104 => 4.5 ... 6.5m => middle: 5.5m
S-Type 115 => 4.8 ... 7.2m => middle: 6.0m
S-Type 126 => 5.0 ... 8.0m => middle: 6.5m

Let's say, I have a perfect board for my 9.0 and I have a perfect one for my 7.5, but I need a board,
what will fit perfectly for my 6.0m sail. I like to take an S-Type, but which one ?

If I would have 80...85 kg, I should take the S-Type 115, as it fits best: middle recommended sail is 6.0m - perfect !

But having this discussion in mind, people with 70 kg (100kg) might now be more aware: they take the S-Type 104 (the ST126 for 100kg), as they know, that their weight have an influence on the sail range of a board - and they both will have more fun with it, than with the S-Type 115 - I'm sure about that
(Don't forget: both (70kg and 100kg) were going to get a board for a 6.0m sail - not just getting any board for their weight ! And without this discussion, both would have thought, the S-Type 115 would be perfekt for the 6.0m sail ...)

That's the point; not more, not less !

Quote:
Originally Posted by mim View Post
But at least it is nice to talk about the gear, setup etc...
Especially, when waiting for wind ...


Cheers Jogi
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P.S.: At the end, all three (70, 85 and 100kg) will (more or less) recognize the same perfect sail range for their 6.0m sail of 4.8...7.2m, but in 3 different boards !!!

Last edited by jogi1111; 11th October 2008 at 04:16 AM.
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Old 11th October 2008, 04:49 AM   #14
mim
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Hi again...this is getting almost academical but I kind of like it.

You concetrate yourself on a same sail size. But to me it is more reasonable to take the wind and fix it.
And now speeking from my own experience, I would pick the board where I would get like 15% below the max recommended sail to be overpowered...as a 100kg guy (appropriate combo)...accordingly to your weight you get a smaller sail and be the same way overpowered and now to the board...I would rather go for a smaller volume on to get better speed once planning (radical jibing, easy chop handling and so on...)

From your example...
let me say:

115 and 6.1 and I would be slightly overpowered (ideal condition to my experience)...
if you want to be powered in the same way you will be good on with smth like 5.6 at yours 70kg.

As far as the wind is enough to get me planning I can handle bigger sails easier than you...because once plannnig you let all your weight to be caried by the sail and you can handle more power....see the speedsurfers...they are not exactly lightweights.

Ciao Michal.

What I am trying to say...if you have to go above the sail range (what ever your weight is) the ride will not make as much fun...and in fact you can say that as a lighter surfer you can handle a bigger sails tham max reccomended.
But this only is right when the havier one does not have the techique to get himself plannig (this would be probably my case...but I have enough dimensionalysed boards to get comfortable with a bigger sail size).
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Old 14th October 2008, 06:05 PM   #15
Floyd
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Hi
Apologies it looks like I`ve tried to hijack this thread.I posted my question before seeing this.
Anyway original poster has got a very good point.
Kode 86 is quoted as sail range 4.0 to 6.0. Dont think I could "sensibly" use it with a 6. (Struggle on my Evo 92 with a 6 or to be more accurate its obvious I would be better on a bigger board.)
The kode 102 is quoted 5.0 to 7.5. Two things a)It was fine with 4.5 (with my not incoonsiderable bulk) but I would not use it ith 7.5 !
My evo works down to 4 metre but is not "ideal" with a 6. I use it well out of range.(I`d guess 3.7 to 5.4 ish)
Could lead to heavies buying wrong kit or more serously from SB`s point of view missing an "ideal" sale.
Heavier mate (108k) specifacally bought k105 for sub 5metre days.Works great for him.
Daughter (67k) goes great on Evo 92 with 6.5 !

Seems to me heavier riders decrease both upper and lower limits of a board but its range stays pretty constant. (approx 2 metre range generally on wave/high wind kit)
Lighter sailors increase both.(but again range is pretty similar)

This should be pointed out in specfication.(But it takes some explaining ?)
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Old 14th October 2008, 07:32 PM   #16
Ola_H
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I answered in the other thread, but to summarize: Yes, sail range depend on sailor weight, but other variables are just as important. So it takes two very similar persons sailing similar sails in similar waters in similar ways, bot one being heavier than the other for a comparison to make sense. And different people might even have differnt reasons to change boards size at all. For example, with my wave boards, I more choose boards depending on the wave conditions. Pretty much all my boards go with pretty much all my wave sails. Might choose 70 liter with a 5.5 if waves are good, but might sail an 80 liter with a 4.0 if its B&J conditions.

I think this particular thread clearly shows how much personal preference can shift things around. At least with a bit of experience, you genreally know what kind of size you like. And of you don't, I think it is a much safer bet to just ask someone more experienced, for example on this forum, than try to read some complicated schemata of sails, boards, weights, conditions, skills etc etc.
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Old 18th October 2008, 05:50 PM   #17
Jean-Marc
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Floyd,

I agree the sail range of a given board depends on rider's weight but I don't agree figures given by Starboard were wrong.

By reviewing all of my recorded sessions since 2003, I'm using all of my boards most of the time with the largest sail simply because excess volume is just unecessary ballast for my 65 kg light weight :
- Serenity: 100% TOW with 11 m2 sail (2-7 kts wind range);
- HS105 : 70% TOW with 11 m2 sail; 30% TOW with 8.2 m2 sail (7-15 kts wind range);
- Kombat 86 : 90% TOW with 6.9 m2 sail; 10% TOW with 6.2 m2 sail (12-20 kts wind range)
- Acid 62 : 60% TOW with 5.4 m2 sail; 40% TOW shared between 4.7/4.2/3.6/3.3 m2 sails (20-45 kts wind range).

Please, pay attention that recommended sails given by Starboard for all the boards listed above were in fact much smaller : 10 m2; 9.5m2; 6.0 m2; 4.7 m2 respectively. What obviously is efficient for a 65 kg light weight rider is not for a XXXL rider, except the Serenity + 11 m2 sail combo which is still great for a 105 kg rider. Buoyancy is a key limiting factor with 105 kg...

A one-size-fits-all solution does not exist IMHO, see your 67 kg daughter on Evo 92 + 6.5 m2 sail combo. Once again, there are so many variable at play that the best piece of advice we can give is to ask your question on our forums. Somebody your size and skills might have the answer already to be shared with you according to YOUR needs.

Cheers !

JM
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Old 22nd October 2008, 01:20 AM   #18
Floyd
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Hi Jean-Marc
Dont think I said they were wrong ;I said they were wrong for some riders.
Quoting instances of sailors using boards within guidelines does not prove they are correct for all.In reality only one instance of use outside "range" indicates they are not perfect.(I know no-one has claimed this)
I use Evo 92 out of range.My mate uses (and bought) k105 out of range virtually all time.
Just think there should be some mention (for us heavies) that we can use most boards with under recommended ail size.
(Or an attempt to quantify it)
Take care.
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