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Old 2nd January 2009, 03:04 PM   #41
Aco
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
I might be stating the obvious here, but obviously you know that people don't sail formula on a 90 degree reach in 20+ knots?
They just sail way upwind or way downwind.
You are mostly right - I would just make a small correction:
"people USUALLY don't sail formula on a 90 degree reach in 20+ knots"

The reasons they do not sail Beam-Reaches is because they are
(+) Over-Rigged for it and
(+) usually not interested in it.

BUT what I would like to emphasize is that while
Formula CAN be sailed on a 90 degree reach in 20+ knots

on the other hand, even @ 20 knots,
Slalom CANNOT be sailed anywhere near the Formula angles, especially upwind.

I Beam Reach Formula all the time to Drag-Race my friends and it is pretty fast, usually @20 kts
(+) a bit faster than Freestyle equipment,
(+) just as fast as Freeride equipment,
(+) a bit slower than Slalom equipment.

Of course when rigged for WW/LW Formula is over-rigged for Beam-Reaching and requires
(+) additional outhaul,
(+) sail out-sheeting and
(+) "flying" the board on the fin by keeping it in balance with the straps to have good speed.

It is thus thus WAAY more physical then either of the others, but this is largely solved by using a smaller sail and shorter fin, which would probably even increase its Beam-Reach speed.

On the other hand, even with larger sails and fins the Slalom upwind angle is nowhere near the Formula angle according to my experience (see lower in the post).
Quote:
Originally Posted by PG View Post
I may be a crappy slalom board sailor, but I do have a pretty race freeslalom board (Tiga Swift 74) and a decent fin (SR6b 46 cm). Even when it is blowing 20 knots I have no chance whatsoever against Formula boards going upwind, they go almost as fast and their angle is simply unbeatable.
Your experience is perfectly in line with mine:
"While in 20 knots Slalom is a BIT faster on a Beam-Reach,
it has so uncomparably lower Upwind Angles
that it is a LOT slower than Formula Upwind"

Quote:
Originally Posted by PG View Post
It would of course be interesting to try with a Slalom setup that is so overrigged that it is virtually impossible to sail on a reach :-)
I have tried this also and it did NOT help me much upwind:
while trying to point extremely high the speed dropped dramatically and spinouts were nasty.

Then I switched for a much larger fin (over the limit for the board) and the spinouts were cured, BUT the board feeling was ugly and while trying to point as high as possible the speed dropped below Formula while still having WAAY lower upwind angles.

Downwind the bigger sail has helped though.
To sum it up I would like to emphasize it one more time:

"Over a wide range of windspeeds and points of sail,
I believe no other windsurfer comes close to Formula in terms of VMG,
even in 20+ knots"


With Best Wishes,
Aco

Last edited by Aco; 2nd January 2009 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 2nd January 2009, 03:10 PM   #42
Floyd
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Cool Horses For Courses ?

Thread has mitigated towards Formula versus Slalom; which is never going to be settled.

There is merit on both sides.

Formula (overall) is fastest discipline of sport.No question.Probably fastest sailing machine yet avilable.(Probably) Its also (probably) hardest to use and certainly hardest to master in strong winds.(Which BTW 20knots is)

Therefore in winds mentioned there is an argument for suggesting you are (probably) on the wrong "horse".
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Old 2nd January 2009, 03:17 PM   #43
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PS
I also think upwind good slalom would match/ beat Formula (in 20k).
Lets face it in 20knots a board just does not need to be 1 metre wide ! Extra width is just extra drag. A well sailed Isonic (122/133) would match upwind angle of Formula in winds mentioned. Not sure about downwind though. Formula would stay on plane much deeper ??
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Old 2nd January 2009, 03:58 PM   #44
Aco
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Hi Floyd and Unregistered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
But in 20 knots Fiormula is not fastest ! Like I said Slalom is !
Gusting 13 to 25 yep I might agree but steady 20 knots Isonics (or similar) would be quicker on probably every point of sail. (Formula would probably sail deeper downwind but I suspect even downwind Isonic would develop faster VMG through better boardspeed.)
Poster asked about 20 knots +.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd View Post
PS
I also think upwind good slalom would match/ beat Formula (in 20k).
Lets face it in 20knots a board just does not need to be 1 metre wide ! Extra width is just extra drag. A well sailed Isonic (122/133) would match upwind angle of Formula in winds mentioned. Not sure about downwind though. Formula would stay on plane much deeper ??
Sorry, but having made the comparison on the water I cannot agree:
as already written above, me nad PG have tried it and Formula was unbeatably faster than Slalom Upwind, even in 20 kts.

Moreover, I sail both Formula and Slalom and would have no big reason to bias towards Formula apart from it being consistently faster.

Still would be grateful if anybody else has made/seen this comparison and would like to share it with us?

With Best Wishes,
Aco

Last edited by Aco; 2nd January 2009 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 2nd January 2009, 05:43 PM   #45
Floyd
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Cool

Cant see any physics that would suggest your case always true.
In 15 knots Formla no doubt at all.
But by 20 knots with boards speeds over 30 knots (with efficient slalom kit) extra width of Formula and depth of fin would be limiting board speed not increasing it.

Would be very difficult to demonstrate because of varying winds/ability etc etc but any races where strong winds are the norm are inevitably won on slalom kit. (Eg Defi as mentioned earlier)

Yes fair enough Defi has little steep upwind legs but upwind ability is often underestimated on slalom kit. At higher speeds attainable on slalom you are by sheer nature sailing closer to wind. (ie aparent wind coming more from front faster you go) VMG of slalom would be better. (IMO)

In 20k slalom/speed kit board capable of at least 30k. Think Formula would max out at 28 ish. (I`ve never got my Formula over 28knots in any wind; Had an FX (and a Carve) over
34.
Doesnt really make sense for a board primarily designed to plane ASAP to beat one exactly designed for 20 knots ?? Something wrong there !

Take care
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Old 2nd January 2009, 11:00 PM   #46
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Floyd, as you probably know very well, the Formulas were not exactly designed with early planning as the main goal, rather it was meant to be the fastest machine when sailing up/downwind in wide range of planing conditions, including over 20kts of wind. Sail tuning and ride technique are the key to having fun on a Formula in these conditions, when going up and downwind at speeds often faster than the BAF crowd out there. In the winter I usually only take the Formula to my spot and use it for fun in up to twenty-something kts of wind, as I do not want to fall to the water at winter temperatures.

Btw. the questions posed in the thread were not IF to ride Formula or not but HOW to do that in these conditions.

IMHO, to be successful, sail and board trim is a must and technique is the next required item, both can be built-up with sailing in different conditions and with some effort made to understand how the sail and sail/fin balance works and what to change and when...

Cheers,

Smok
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Old 2nd January 2009, 11:15 PM   #47
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Cool Formula not designed for early paning ?????

Formula was designed with early planing TOTALLY in mind.(Thats why they are 100cm wide )All future efforts have been to combine this quality with semblence of higher wind control.
Its when planing is problemtatic for other boards that Formula excells. They are the ultimate in early planing;not control (or even VMG or speed) in 20knots plus.
Formula boards are incredible pieces of kit but lets not exagerate their abilities.
In 20k plus they would not be my board of choice.
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Old 3rd January 2009, 07:38 AM   #48
Ken
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I would guess that the vast majority of formula sailors race formula. Not many recreational sailors would buy a formula kit for fun. The average sailor does not want to invest in the big board, big booms, big sails and long masts. However, once committed to formula, why not blast around on an 8-15 knot day blowing everything else off the water.

Formula is not for everyone, but for those that have gone that way, it's clear why we do what we do.

Where I live, I am sure that sailing formula allows me to increase the number of days that I sail by 50%. Why not be on the water when the "short board" sailors are at home wishing for more wind?
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Old 3rd January 2009, 07:50 AM   #49
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Floyd,

If you really understand what VMG means, NO slalom board can beat a formula upwind or downwind period.

Back about 9 years ago when formula established itself, I was still racing a course slalom board against the formula boards. Big mistake, I had my ass kicked several times before I bought my first formula board (F175). Before formula the course slalom boards (70 to 85 cm wide) were the fasted course racing boards around (upwind and down course) if there was at least 12-15 knots of wind.

In the right hands and in 20 knots of wind, I don't think there is ANY sailing craft that has a better VMG than a formula board.
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Old 3rd January 2009, 05:35 PM   #50
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Default Vmg ???

Yachting Encyclopedia Definition

Velocity Made Good (VMG): The speed of a yacht relative to the waypoint it wants to reach.

Its not complicated Ken. Important bit is "wants to reach".

Slalom could quite easily have better VMG !!!
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