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Old 28th March 2009, 10:09 PM   #1
sam 2007
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Default Revo and Retro question

Roger,
I wrote you last summer that my 6.5 Retro doesn't rig too well on my 460 Joystick cause the mast is too soft. There are times when my 8.0 Retro is too big but the 6.5 isn't enough cause the top is so loose. The Joystick is 25.5 IMCS and the 6.5 takes 25 - 29.

I thought about getting a 7.0 Retro but if the 460 Joystick is too soft for the 6.5 it would be for the 7.0 too.

Now I'm thinking I might get a 2007 6.9 Revo instead of the 7.0 Retro. The 6.9 takes a 24 - 26 460 mast which should work well on my Joystick. I want to learn to duck jibe and the Revo would be better, right?

Are the Revos as easy to rig as the Retros? Do they have a loose mast sleeve too and no cams? I hate rigging a sail with a tight sleeve.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks.

Sam
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Old 29th March 2009, 03:15 AM   #2
Roger
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Hi Sam,
Hmmmm.... very interesting.
What leads you to believe that your Sailworks Joystick mast is too soft?
Retro sails were specifically designed for the Joystick mast characteristics.
The IMCS range for a Joysitck should be 24-26 and your 6.5 m2 Retro should rig
well on an IMCS 24-26 Joystick mast.
How much downhaul are you putting on your 6.5 m2 Retro.
Does the amound of downhaul cause the batten above the boom to "pull
back" to about mid mast (pretty much tangent to the lee side of the mast).
If you are downhauling more than it takes to pull the batten above the boom back to
midmast, perhaps you are simply putting on a bit too much downhaul, which would naturally lead to the top of the sail twisting off more than you might want.
You are correct that the Revolution (Revo) is an excellent choice for freestyle and maneuvers, and it did come in a 6.9 m2 size in '05/'06/'07. If you've found one that could be good choice for you, but be aware that the Revo rigs a bit flatter and this specific size was designed for heavyweight sailors who want to wave sail or do freestyle (that's you, right?) but it probably does not have as much planing power as a 6.5 Retro because the boom is shorter, the foot is cut much higher and it's designed to rig
a bit flatter.
The 6.9 Revo uses softer battens that can withstand the surf, so it does not have the same stability
and will overpower a bit sooner than the 7.0 Retro.
A 6.6 m2 Hucker, while it may not be the best for freestyle maneuvers, would definitely give you a bit more power than your 6.5 Retro.
On your question about the Revo being as easy to rig as your Retro's, I'd say yes, both the Revo and Retro are very easy to rig, but the luff sleeve on the Revo is slightly tighter in my expereince, but I've been using Backbone RDM's in the Revo's and smaller
Huckers so it's not a problem.
Wish we had a way to test your mast to detemine if your 6.5 m2 Retro may have stretched a bit or is the mast really as soft as you surmise.
I checked with Bruce P. and he suggests finding someone who sails with you that also has a 460 cm IMCS 24-26 Joystick mast.
Rig your sail on his mast, and see if there's a difference. If someone else has a 6.5 Retro, rig it on both masts as well.
Perhaps your particular 460 Joystick is not up to spec.
If you get your mast checked out, I think a 7.0 m2 Retro is probably going to be better for what you want than the 2007 6.9 Revo, but only you can make that decision.
I'm guessing you don't have too much wind there real often, so having a bit more power might prove better than a sail that handles freestyle moves a bit easier.
I also looked over the posts from back in August 2008, and I see nothing there that would change your situation.
Also Bruce P. suggested that if you cannot find someone with a 460 Joystick, try to find a 460 Powered Z-Free. These masts are supposed to be identical and come off the same mandrels, wrapped to the same specifications. Only the branding is different (I.E. Sailworks Joystick/Powerex Z-Free)
Hope this helps,
Roger

Last edited by Roger; 29th March 2009 at 03:56 AM.
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Old 29th March 2009, 06:21 AM   #3
sam 2007
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Roger,
I have cut and pasted some of my post and your reply from July 08 cause I didn't give you much info to go on today about my 6.5.
Thank you for getting back to me so quickly and talking to Bruce. I haven't been able to rig the 6.5 on anyone else's 460 mast.

I got a new 2007 8.0 Retro last summer and it rigs great on my 490 Powerex z free.

Sam
from July 08 -

Roger,
I have an 8.0 and a 6.5 Retro that I'm having a little trouble rigging on days when the 8.0 is a too much but the 6.5 isn't enough. I rig the 8.0 on a 75% Powerex mast and the 6.5 on a 75% Sailworks mast.


The 6.5 kinda works in reverse of the 8.0. To get the batten to move beside the mast so that it will rotate the top of the sail is very loose and again I do not enough power in medium wind.

Do you any suggestions about what I might do to get more range out of my 6.5 and 8.0.

Thanks.

Sam

Hi Sam,

Sounds to me like you have some minor mast compatability issues here.


The only way to get the batten above the boom cutout to be at the midpoint (fore and aft) of the mast at the same downhaul tension that gives you the scallop in the top of the sail running in to the tuning mark is to have a fully compatable mast.


For your 6.5 Retro, again there's not much you can do to get both of the tuning points correct if your mast is too soft in the top.
So, again, since you can't change the bend characteristics of the top section of the mast, do the best you can to tune by the front of the batten above the boom and let the top do whatever it does.
You might want to check with some of the folks you sail with and see it you can borrow some different 460 and 490 masts to see if there's a difference in how your sails rig.

If you have any "back up" masts, you could try them as well.

Sounds like the bend characteristics in the top sections of your masts is off, the top of the 490 cm being a little too stiff and the top of your 460 being a little too soft.

Hope this helps,

Last edited by sam 2007; 29th March 2009 at 06:24 AM.
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Old 7th April 2009, 07:47 AM   #4
joe_windsurfer
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Default retros

Bruce once informed me that the 490 works with the 7.0
not sure this was an option with the 6.5, but if it is, it will definitely make the top of the mast less soft...
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Old 7th April 2009, 09:49 AM   #5
Roger
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Hmmmm... interesting...
I've looked through all the old Retro specs and I do not see any mention of a 490 mast being suggested for a 6.5 m2 rig.
Maybe, you could stiffen up the top of the rig with a 490 top on a compatible 460 bottom if the ferrules will work.
That would also require extending the head cap quite a ways and that usually puts the sail lower on the mast tip, adding additional stiffness.
Hope this helps,
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Old 8th April 2009, 04:37 AM   #6
joe_windsurfer
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Default here is the message from bruce 6.5 retro with 490

Subject: Re: sailworks 6.5 with a 490
> >
> > Hi Joe,
> >
> > Yes you can use a 490 on the 6.5 Retro. You'll have to change out the
> > headcap strap to the longer one that is in with the rigging guide.
> > The longer 490 mast is also stiffer, so it make the 6.5 Retro set up
> > fuller and tighter than you would see on a 460 mast. This is OK for
> > heavier riders who can utilize more rig tension for increased top end
> > stability, but for lightweights it will choke off some of the low end
> > potential.
> >
> > Fair winds,
> >
> > Bruce
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Old 9th April 2009, 09:33 PM   #7
sam 2007
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Smile 6.5 Retro on 490 mast

Roger, Joe and Bruce,

Thanks for the comments. I'll try the top of my 490 Powerex on the bottom of my 460 Joystick with the 6.5.

Roger,

Based on your advise I decided against the 6.9 Revo. I'm not sure now that they ever had one in stock anyway. If I ever need to replace the 6.5, I'll get a 7.0 Retro.

I just bought a 2008 4.6 Revo and 400 cm Lipstick from Sailworks. They are having good deals on 2008 sails with free shipping this month. Caesar looked at the Sailworks web site and suggested the 4.6 and 400 mast for light wind freestyle. I figured since he is the best in the world in light wind his advise would be spot on.

Thanks guys.

Sam
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Old 10th April 2009, 08:42 AM   #8
Roger
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Hi Sam,
You can only use the 490 top on the 460 bottom if the ferrules are compatible.
Make sure the male part at the top of your 460 fits nice and snug into the female
part of the 490 top.
If it doesn't fit snugly, it won't work and you risk breaking the ferrule off the top of the
460 bottom section due to "point loading" issues.
Give it a try and let us know here how it works for you.
R
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Old 14th April 2009, 06:04 AM   #9
sam 2007
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Roger,
Thanks for the comments about my 6.5 Retro. I'll let you know how it does with the 460/490 combo.

Sam
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