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Old 26th August 2009, 05:56 AM   #21
Jean-Marc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd View Post
Fine if it suits you but its just not relevant to be publishing all your "toys" on here.
Its just another part of the hype/BS.. We just play our part like good consumers without even realising we are been manipulated.

As I said our sport is endemic with BS...

Do you really need 5 boards to get max TOW/enjoyment ???

The boards we own/sail have nothing to do with the accuracy/helpfullness of posts ???
Floyd,

Looks like you're a fan of *B marketing conspiracy theory or what ? Please find below some of my answers to your *B BS claims as follows:

1) As a consumer, I never felt being manipulated by *B to buy their board. Nobody puts a gun over my head to buy their gear. It has always been my free choice to buy all the gear I wanted for what purpose I intended to do. Moreover, I do not agree at all that our windsurfing sport is endemic with BS. For example, you cannot go wavesailing with a Serenity obviously...!

2) Do I need 5 boards to get max TOW ? Yes if considering max TOW as getting maximum performance as of 2 knots of wind up to 45 knots, from dead flat water up to 2 m high swell:
- Acid 62 covers wind range 20-45 knots with 3.3-5.4 m2 sails for wave sailing and hardcore freeriding;
- Kombat 86 covers wind range 12-25 knots with 5.4-6.9 m2 sails for freeriding and light wind wavesailing;
- iSonic 53 speed covers wind range 12-22 knots with 6.6 & 7.7 m2 sails for speedsailing;
- Hypersonic 105 covers wind range 7-15 knots with 8.2 & 11 m2 sails for slalom and mini-formula sailing;
- Serenity covers wind range 2-7 knots with 11 m2 sail for ultra light wind cruising and long distance racing.

Do I want to go back to my first 1980 windsurfer in order to get the same max TOW as that of today? No way, that's BS all the way ! That antique barge had a ridiculously tiny wind range and sloppy performance.

3) "The boards we own/sail have nothing to do with the accuracy/helpfullness of posts".

Really? Sorry Floyd, it does matter simply because you don't know what you're talking about if you don't have at least tested such boards first hand. Let me show you 2 examples. No BS, but plain old first hand experience :
- Is it possible to sail Acid 62 in < 20 knots of wind on flat water? Yes, it's possible for my 65 kg. Is it fun? Not for my taste, other boards are way funnier on dead flat water like the iSonic speed gun.
- Is it possible to sail the Serenity in high wind? Yes, it is, see 2007 old report with a 4.x m2 sail in 30 knots wind by Roger. Is it fun? Not for my taste, I would rather choose my Acid 62 + 4.2/4.7 m2 sail in such strong wind and waves at my local spot.

Cheers!

JM
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Old 26th August 2009, 03:21 PM   #22
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There has always been a tendency for Starboard to be optimistic with their claims; I really don't think they have to be this way at all. Their products can speak for themselves. Read through website and there are other examples.IMHO its becoming damaging to Starboard. Agree with Screamer totally.
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Old 27th August 2009, 02:37 PM   #23
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TOW is one thing and enjoyment is another. Personally I see no FOW (Fun On Water) in cruising with a 11 sqm sail in 5 Knts, moreover at the expense of specific gear. I'd rather wait for a solid 12 Knts to go windsurf, should it last several weeks. Back to the topic, yes it is strange marketing. This will sound very outdated in a few months. Hopefully Starboard will come with better arguments (or better iSonic's).
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Old 27th August 2009, 04:30 PM   #24
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...or better team riders!
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Old 27th August 2009, 11:23 PM   #25
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Farlo
I'm afraid it will not sound outdated in a few months, it already sounds outdated now ;-)
I don't think there is a slalom board that stands head and shoulders above the rest, you could shuffle top 10 sailors and their sponsors, and you'll get pretty much the same results. It's in the nuances, what suits you.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the iSonics or team riders. Just with words.
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Old 28th August 2009, 05:07 AM   #26
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Thumbs down

JM
Hope you are better at sailing than understanding plain speaking.
Starboard do not need to put a gun to anyones head to get them to buy boards. !!! All they have to do (apparently) is make what is at best "optimistic" claims about their products. (see other threads/ loads of evidence both on this site/brochures/ etc etc where #B have "exagerated" (to put it mildly)
Amazingly there were people windsurfing before starboard started !!! And enjoying it; strong winds; light winds; everything...
The point re number of boards is probably over your head. Its NOTHING to do with how many boards you have/dont have/use/ have had; and NOTHING to do with justifying them either. I`ve had dozens of boards.Proud owner of probably 7 at moment. (And yes even I have been assimilated into the Star-borg (have a Kode and an Evo) and had a Carve upto recently. Point is its become common practice to list our numerous purchases (completing our assimilation) to help assimilate others into the "class".(Starboard started the trend)

I think Starboard boards are fantastic. (As are Mistral/F2 and Tabou) Starboard do not need to make the claims/push the boards/etc etc. Let them sell on merit. There are many sailors becoming alienated to the position Starboard take for this very reason. (The assimliation reference is not mine BTW; borrowed from another site)

Anyone who buys anything has been manipulated in one way or another.The world can be a little more subtle than putting guns to heads !!! For anyone who can read the evidence is abundant that Starboard do over play the hype game !!! Its obvious but that does not stop the boards being good !!! But there ARE other brands who also make some fantastic products. If we aren`t carefull there wont be !!!!

Read 2010 brochure.Apparently one of the boards is 15% more efficient than last year !!!!
How`s that calculated when manufacturers (including Starboard) cant even give accurate volumes/weights or sizes ??? Its simple BS/Hype.
Perhaps you believe everything you want to believe; the rest of us dont know what they are talking about when we question it !!!

And yes ; in some respects it does help to have (or had) a board you are giving specific advice about but
a) That does not preclude good advice coming from those that haven`t
b) Why list all the lot ??? If question is about Acid; fine include fact that you have one but dont then go on to proclaim to world you also have a freestyle and a freeride and a formula and a slalom etc etc. (Remi actually lists 22 boards !!!! it becomes meaningless !!! except to say to everyone " yep,its allright to go out and buy loads of kit " )

Its time #Board adopted plain speaking; lost the claims and dropped the BS !!! (I`m not the only one saying it !!!! ; read other threads !!!)

Dare I say it on here. My favourite board ??? Mistral Syncro RD 124. What do they say about that in their brochures ???? Have a LOOK !!!!No claims; No Hype just simple description.Then read Starboards brochure. (if you`ve got a few hours to spare)
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Old 28th August 2009, 05:35 AM   #27
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JM Wrote
- Acid 62 covers wind range 20-45 knots with 3.3-5.4 m2 sails for wave sailing and hardcore freeriding;
- Kombat 86 covers wind range 12-25 knots with 5.4-6.9 m2 sails for freeriding and light wind wavesailing;
- iSonic 53 speed covers wind range 12-22 knots with 6.6 & 7.7 m2 sails for speedsailing;
- Hypersonic 105 covers wind range 7-15 knots with 8.2 & 11 m2 sails for slalom and mini-formula sailing;
)- Serenity covers wind range 2-7 knots with 11 m2 sail for ultra light wind cruising and long distance racing.

Sounds great in theory

Few problems with this JM ???
A) Taking your average (mostly occuring?? (ie mode) windy day to be circa 20knots which do you choose ??? (First 3 include 20k; and probably first 4 (ie 15 knots is normally gusting to 20???)
B) There is so much overlap you are not getting any more TOW !!! Just different TOW
C) On a drive to coast what do you take ???? How bigs the van ????
D) Hypersonic does not plane in 7 knots.(We wouldnt need Formula if it did)
E) How many days do you go to justify the outlay ?? Retired ????
F) This is probably why there are so few newcomers ???? (5 boards ? 8 sails ??? and probably always on wrong kit (wind always changes through day in UK???)

But its top marks for consuming !!!!

Forget sailing in under 12 knots. Buy a kode 86 (and a canoe); covers the lot !!!
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Old 28th August 2009, 03:24 PM   #28
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Hi Screamer, I'm afraid the same text may sit here till August 2010... Nothing wrong with team riders indeed. It will be hard work to make it happen !!
Hi Floyd, there have been long debates on Hype already. Optimistic claims are one thing. The point is: has Starboard marketing gone too far this time?
Some of us seem to think it is beyond usual "BS". (By the way, would we feel concerned if we didn't like the brand / its products to some extend?)

Last edited by Farlo; 28th August 2009 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 29th August 2009, 08:53 PM   #29
Jean-Marc
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Floyd,
unregistered,

I do really think your provocative hype/BS views against SB marketing are tainted with some misconception about what today's marketing is all about. I don't think SB is committed to spend marketing their products, year after year after year, just to stimulating, reinforcing and exacerbating people's consumerist fantasies to becoming as a bad, frantic and pernicious purpose as you describe earlier. Rather,I think your view is a typical representative of a shift in society against commoditisation, commercialisation and consumption. Your view and that of unregistered is typical of a new stance that is slowly building up in the collective consciousness of many people. Unfortunatley, you mix the marketing purpose with that of your own as seen as the "bad"/"hype"/"BS" propagating purpose that invariably results into increase in consumption, margin and profits for SB. In particular, I don't agree with you and unregistered that marketing is just about generating more commodities, just offering more choice than is needed (i.e., 5 boards is too much, too much quiver overlap, top marks for consumerism, etc...) and persuading people to consume more (look at Remi listing 22 boards).

Your satirical diatribe that marketing is only the art of persuading people to part with their cash for products they don't really want or need (Floyd cannot make his mind between the 110 and 125 L board; unregistered believes JM is always on wrong kit because 4 of them covers the 20 knots wind speed) is an unsounded misconception at the very best or total crap at the very bottom level of understanding and perception of what marketing is really conveying about. That Remis is listing 22 boards in his signature to make customers believe marketing is operating only at the promotional end of the business spectrum is a totally wrong and blinded perception. Remi is not Starboard single and only pitchman or salesman of that company. A single board quiver that covers everything is an impossible utopia to realize (i.e., Kode 86 and a canoe do-it-all magic quiver proposition of unregistered). Limiting yourself at 12 knots and telling the world that sailing below that arbitrary limit is crap is typical of a poorly blinded vision that promote there is no FOW without planing.

Guys, it's about time to remove the blinders in front of your eyes and start accepting there are many forms of enjoyment with 1, 2, 3 or 22 windsurfing boards no matters the conditions are. I see no enjoyment sitting on the beach sipping a beer while waiting for the wind to increase to 12 knots to go out windsurfing when exciting kits exists to enjoy windsurfing in 1-3 Bft wind. Moreover, not everybody has the chance to live near a spot where it blows year-long 12 knots and above. Light wind windsurfing can be as exciting, rewarding and as challenging as that of above 12 knots. And yes unregistered, I'm on full planing mode and as fast as a Formula on my hypersonic in 7 knots wind as evidenced by countless drag racing since Nov 2002. Absolutely zero need for a Formula for my light weight. Adding a 10.6 or 11m2 sail has multiplied my number of planing session by a factor of 2. Adding a Serenity has increased that number by a factor of 4, therefore vastly increasing TOW year-long. Finally, newcomers are coming in at our local spots because they are amazed by seeing me having tons of fun in all conditions. Both young guns students/scholars as well as oldies but goldies full time job holders and retirees.

Lastly but not the least, what's wrong Floyd and Viking with team riders listing all of their gear ? Sorry, I don't get it...

Cheers & happy ride on the water guys, no matter the kit and/or conditions!

JM
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Old 30th August 2009, 09:40 PM   #30
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Marketing is just that "marketing". Every company has people that put the best "spin" in their employer's product. Starboard is under some pressure at the moment with AA winning for JP and a tough economy worldwide to sell its product in. The fact that AA became a winner on Starboard products is true. Did AA test the JP boards and, regardless of monetary incentives, he just "knew" he had to switch? Now that's true marketing BS! Look at AA's interview on the home page where he talks about the Isonics giving him the "edge" while he no doubt was negotiating with JP at the same time - he got paid to promote Starboard and now he gets paid to promote JP. I don't see anyone attacking him for his promotional "hype"! These guys spout BS all the time because they get paid to, but that's O,K, because it is simply promotion? Starboard's claims are no more exaggerated than what JP is claiming - they're both trying to sell product and you do what you feel you have to do to accomplish that. The more interesting question for me is just how much influence does the advertising dollar have on the magazines that test these products?
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