Old 6th December 2006, 04:23 PM   #11
SeanAUS120
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Default RE: F161

Hi guys,

Thought I'd share some thoughts on the 161 as I've been sailing it quite a lot over the last few months.

One thing I&#39;ve noticed with this board, is that it is less sensitive to fin stiffness than previous model starboards. I find that I can get "almost" similar results with a S- or an M fin in most conditions under 15knots. At the bottom end of the wind range (<10knots), the softer fins are better, but the difference isn&#39;t as pronounced as you would think. I&#39;ve mainly been testing with an R19 S- and an R13 73cutdown M, and can get almost identical results upwind, with the R19 being a little faster downwind with its smaller tip.

This makes me understand why an R17 won&#39;t work in this board, and what fins you should really be using...

Basically, the extra width in the tail of the 161 is contributing to your lift upwind. Because the board is so big (and wide), you need a high-lift fin to unstick the board and get it to rail. High-lift fins can come in two forms, either a soft fin (soft fin relies on twist to get the lift), or a fin with a large area (like an R19). This is why I think you can get a M or a S-/S-- fin to do a similar job, as long as the M you are using is high in area (R19, R13 cutdowns). *** Although in saying that, a high area fin like an R19 that is super soft, should give you the greatest lift as it combines the best of both worlds, but a softer fin is usually a little slower than the same fin in M stiffness downwind.

The R16 and R17 fins are not high-lift fins. They have thinner cross sections and less area than R19/R13s and rely on speed to get the lift. Despite whatever you do to get the nose to lift on the 161 (ie, boom up, mast-track back, footstraps back), these fins simply don&#39;t generate enough lift to get this big board to rail and unstick the nose: more board in the water means more drag, which is slow.

So Remi is right on the money with having your mast track further back, straps in the back holes and not using an R17 in this board. Your main aim on this board to go fast is to get the nose up and the board railing...
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Old 11th December 2006, 06:53 AM   #12
Racer
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Default RE: F161

Sean

When you say that power can come from either rake or softness have you ever tried or seen a C3 Jay?
The fin i have appears to have no rake compared to a deb fin, but it&#39;s hard to quantify as its a different shape. However the fin is soft with lots of twist.
Would you think that such a fin would be more powerful than a R13 H +2 in light wind?
Most deb fins now seem to be both soft and racked at least +6
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Old 11th December 2006, 10:11 PM   #13
honk
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Default RE: F161

After yr advice, we bought 3 pces of R19 S from Deboichet
I use my R 19 RF6 on my F161, my friends use the R19 RF8 on the F159. We all have the same problem, the board tends to spin out on light wind , strong wind. We do understand it is because we press the back leg too much but we are all experience sailors and this has not happen in our previous board and fin setup. Since we are using on the F161 and 159 ( 2 different kind of boards ) we suspect there is something we should know how to make better use of the R19. Could we have yr advice and suggestions on this spin out problem
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Old 12th December 2006, 08:11 PM   #14
Remi
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Default RE: F161

Hi Honk,

The R19 soft -- rake +8 cm is specialy dedicace to the F 161. So I never try it on the F 159, but this fin must be too much powerfull for this board (Tail is too narow).

You may try the Rake + 8cm on the F 161 and put your mast base as much as possible in the back. This depend of the size and trade mark of the sail you use. But for me (Severne) and Julien (Pryde) it&#39;s behind the middle of all the track.

Hope this can help.

All the best
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Old 18th December 2006, 08:29 AM   #15
SeanAUS120
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Default RE: F161

Racer:

To make it a little complicated, there are a few varieties of C3 Jay fins that I have come across on the market. I wont comment on how the difference in rake/shape between a C3 and a Deb will make the board perform, because its something I dont totally understand, however one thing I do know on the C3 Jays is that its important to have a fin that is torsionally stiff, to get it to work upwind (and downwind). By &#39;torsional stiffness&#39; I mean if you put the fin in your board and turn the board upside down, then twist the fin tip left and right with your thumb and index finger (like you are unscrewing a beer bottle top), that is the torsional stiffness, as opposed to the stiffness we normally are talking about when you bend a fin over your knee.

The early Jay fins from Boogie werent very torsionally stiff, and as a result we found the Debs a lot faster upwind/downwind. A few of the boys down in Sydney worked with Boogie and managed to build soft fins that were torsionally stiff which were starting to get on par with the Debs. With the Sydney boys helping, Boogies fins were getting better and better and better with each new Jay proto, but unfortunately, Boogie now no longer makes fins. So there are only about 3-4 versions of these torsionally stiff Jays I have seen in existence which are all down in Sydney so my guess would be yours is an older version (>12 months old?), which would be soft, torsionally. This wont give you the same power as a soft Deb fin. ALL the Deb fins are quite torsionally stiff, whether they are S-- or H+, which is why they are such nice fins

So back to the point (lol), I think your Jay will be better (more power) than an R13 Hard +2 simply because it is softer and getting more power from the flex/twist of the fin than a H fin will, but it wouldnt be anywhere as good as a modern R13/R19 S- especially if you got one raked forward >+6cm. As a rule of thumb, I think the further you rake a fin forward, the more torsional stiffness you need to go downwind fast, because if your fin is twisting too much downwind, you are losing the loading you are generating on the fin with your legs as the fin keeps releasing (as it twists from side to side), which could also mean you spinout a little downwind or that the board &#39;fin-steers&#39; (ie, the board controls where you go, instead of YOU controlling where you go!)

Honk:

The R19 works great in the 159. In fact, it works fine in the 159, 160 and 161 (although with the 161 you can obtain the best speed/angles out of that fin). On the 159 with the R19 I use the mast track ALL the way back (ie, mast plate covering the serial number) with a 10.7 in all winds (a little further forward with 11.6/12.5 or if you are >90kgs in weight) and with the 161 the mast track a little behind centre (ie, 2cm behind centre) in all winds. With the mast track further forward you are pushing the nose of the board down which may give you an uneven loading on the fin. Also try filing the front (or back) of your fin head so you can adjust the rake 1-2cm while on the beach, and try your fin at a few different angles next time you go sailing. For every cm you change the rake of a fin you are changing how the fin twists/performs and this is very personal to your sailing style and maybe why you are getting spinout (strange, because I have never experienced spinout with the R19 in any board). There could be a host of reasons for spinout too (not enough downhaul, boom to high [overloading the fin], footstraps too far apart [incorrect loading of fin] ??? but probably you guys are good sailors and might know that already. . .

Testing gear is like computer programming, just try everything one step at a time and you will eventually eliminate all variables until you figure out why your spinning out.

Err...sorry about the long post :S
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Old 18th December 2006, 01:13 PM   #16
Racer
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Default RE: F161

Sean
Many thanks for your detailed reply. I used the C3 recently and did find it more powerful than the R13 H, but really slow up and down wind.
It is torsionally very soft and your answer explains all.
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Old 19th December 2006, 04:25 PM   #17
konstas
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Default RE: F161

KOSTAS GR
Hello i want to ask you a guestion .Im 1.70m and 66 kgr. Wnat is better to use E161 or APOLLO ?. THANK YOU
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Old 19th December 2006, 11:37 PM   #18
Remi
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Default RE: F161

Hi Konstas,

It&#39;s depend of what you would like to do with this board and wind condition you have in your spot.

Formula Racing between 7 to 30 knots = F 161
Free Racing : under 12 konts = Apollo
Formula Racing with 70cm fin under 10 knots = Apollo

Per, on us who develope this board who is only 60 kgs like this board with 11m under 10 knots.

Formula Racing fins rules still 70 cm max, may be change nest year for 75cm after trials with all top racers during an big event.

All the best.


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Old 20th December 2006, 02:26 PM   #19
konstas
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Default RE: F161

KOSTAS GR
THANK YOU FOR YOUR ANSWER REMI
Our Formula Recing condition in Greece is beetween 8-34 knots uswaly the conditions is 9-18 knots. What you think to do?
WAT is your opinion for SEVERNE SAILS
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Old 20th December 2006, 02:40 PM   #20
konstas
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Default RE: F161

KOSTAS GR
SORI
SEVERNE SAILS CODE : RED R2 11-10 m
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