sail size

[mac33]

today it looked very windy so i only brought smaller 52wide 80litre with me.the wind dropped 10/20 knots averaging around 13knots. i had an absolute dog of a day with 5.0m. however had i took my 58 wide 95litre larger board i would have had reasonable day.point being a 5.0m rigged full on a 58 wide you can sail mostly powered up in around 12/16 knots for 70kg sailors. a smaller 80 litre board used does as i found today make it a grovel.the other advantage that i did not mention in original post is in stronger wind 20/25 a 5.0m will have higher topend speed over 5.8m or bigger as control is greater esp on reach. in 20knots plus with 5.8m i immediately sail upwind in gusts.this is why i tend to prefer 5m over 5.8m i never can never be too sure when wind will pick up. in slalom comp in 12/16 i do agree larger sail will give you clear edge over a 5.0m.

Well there you go, Mac 33 - how do mention 9/11 in a forum on sail size?
Your a conspiracy theorist - aggghhh!. That explains quite a lot about your opinions on sailing. Now I can just feel sorry, nod my head in aggreement and think 'there but for the grace of God go I...'

[Ken]

Mac,

You should have used a larger sail.

We finally got some wind yesterday here in North Texas, 14-20 knots . Not much wind around here in the summer, but Fall is now here. I was on my iS 111 and Maui Sails TR4 7.6. On plane 100 % of the time, great speed for me (peak of 29 knots) and a great day. Most guys were out on 6.5 - 7.6 sails. My buddy that weighs 70 kg was out on a 5.8 sail, a 100L board and did well, but didn't plane 100% of the time.

[mac33]

Originally Posted by Finian

Well there you go, Mac 33 - how do mention 9/11 in a forum on sail size?
Your a conspiracy theorist - aggghhh!. That explains quite a lot about your opinions on sailing. Now I can just feel sorry, nod my head in aggreement and think 'there but for the grace of God go I...'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtx_GcFCs6c

there go i for the grace of god.

i choose my sailsize not what i am told is right but what i believe is right.
love to sail past u in lull on my baggy sail setup.each to there own.

[davide]

Originally Posted by mac33

i use 52 wide kinetic slalom in 16/30 knots and 58 wide[5.5kg] in around 12/16 knots both with 5.0 vapor. i have 5.8rs6 but prefer light feel of 5m. i do plane in this light wind with 5m perhaps not as much as with 5.8. i also own 7.7 severne cr2 which i use with fanatic falcon 75 wide,8kg and 41fin . i just bought this sail last week and to my surprise it starts to plane in around 7 /8 knots, fully powered up in 10knots.checked these wind speeds on seabreeze. com.au so i think what i am saying is correct.can hold 5m in 20/25 and just survive [max downhaul] in 25/30.lightweight equip boards, base, mast is one secret along with heaps negative outhaul.i was planning the other day not quite as early as guy on 11.0m. he had a good bit more downhaul than me. he could not believe i was planning with 7.7m.

Hi Mac33, I am 6 pounds heavier than you, to compare I sail a CA SL 52 (and a 58), Isonic-111 and an old Mike Lab 76cm wide (probably 130L). I owned both a Kinetic 52 and 58 Slalom (2003 UL/110L), and a Sonic 52.

For me the CA 52 (and Kinetic and Sonic 52) are optimal with a 5.5, they can well use a 6.0, a bit uncomfortable and easily overcame by a 6.6. A 5.0 works (I have a HOT Superspeed) but I am generally very happy and well balanced with a 5.5/6.0 (Hot Sails GPS). 30 knots? I am not sure I have what it takes.

My Kinetic 58 was quite a big board (probably different from yours) and was surprisingly quick to plane with a small sail. However the optimal sail size was a 7.0-7.3. The 5.5 I occasionally used when too lazy to re-rig was a bit too small to control the board if the wind came back; never used a 5.0 on it. Good parallel for my Kinetic 58 is a Is-101. By the way my IS-111 would of course carry a bigger sail, but also be much more controllable than the Kinetic. My current CA 58 is probably similar to your kinetic, it works with 6.0-6.5, 5.5 is unbalanced, 5.0 I never tried.

Coming to your light air performance: my ML was quite amazing with a 8.0 and a 50 cm fin. I am not sure about 8 knots, but I am sure that I do not want to go out with a 10. My max sail is 7.3 right now. that works with the ML and a 44 fin, but I did loose low end and probably will buy again an 8.0 next year, although, lucky where I live, it would be for a few days/year.

So, in summary, give or take a few knots your observations sort of match mine, although my minimal quiver for slalom would be 5.5 - 6.6 - 8.0, your choice 5.0 - (5.8) - 7.7 would not work well for me.

[mac33]

someone on this forum actually agreeing or partly agreeing with me.
finian and screamer will be next be telling you to open up a clinic so we can learn to rig it wrong.
you say the smaller sizes 5.0 and 5.5 on 58wide board feel unbalanced,loss of control. another way of saying this is board with light rig when powered up starts lifting very high out of water. this is true i find but its exactly what i am looking for.its good for surfing chop and swell. the only way i have chance of beating big blokes for speed is when we hit large chop/swell this is where the extra lift of this combo comes in handy for surfing over it.
it does take time to get used to lift of small sail/larger board. if you get max weight in harness to nose of board in gusts it should help to stop board from taking off.
this combo is also great for gybing in lulls and for planning early.
my kinetics are race model not freeride edition.i have tried carbonart52 and 44.they were good but still prefer my kinetics. i am trying jp 84 litre slalom its very fast in flat water appalling control in chop, thats 07 model. i also owned starboard 52. it edged kinetic in flattish water, kinetic had definite edge in choppy water.
my light wind board fanatic falcon 75 wide is 152 litres volume. checked windspeeds on seabreeze website on numerous occasions it does plane in around 8 knots with 7.7m rigged with no outhaul/ downhaul.overpowers though in around 12 knots.

[Jean-Marc]

Originally Posted by mac33

my light wind board fanatic falcon 75 wide is 152 litres volume. checked windspeeds on seabreeze website on numerous occasions it does plane in around 8 knots with 7.7m rigged with no outhaul/ downhaul.overpowers though in around 12 knots.

Mac33,

Your achievments sounds very impressive but I strongly doubt about the wind speed recording. Something must be wrong with the calibration of the "seabreeze" website wind anemometer. It clearly sounds to me that either the anemometer is off-scale and needs an urgent tune-up or that your actual sailing venue is far away from the location of the anemometer. In short : you are clearly underestimating the true wind speed while sailing.

Being a light weight myself at 65 kg, I need 7 knots of constant wind to start and sustain the planing with a 77 cm wide board and a Code Red 11 m2 sail and I get completely overpowered above 12-13 knots. With the same 77 cm wide board, the wind range is 10-15 knots with an 8.2 m2 race sail or 11-17+ knots with a Code Red 7.7 m2 sail. I've never been able to start and sustain the planing as of 7 knots of wind with anything smaller than a 10.6 m2 sail, and certainly not as of 8 knots with a 7.7 m2 sail, no matter how baggy the downhaul has been set up.

Furthermore, the wind range with a 5.4m2 sail on the same 77 cm wide board is about 18-25 knots of wind. I'm unable to start and sustain the planing as of 12 knots with such a sail. Therefore, I have very strong doubt about the planing ability in the low wind range as reported with your 5.0 or 5.8 m2 racing sail, sorry about that again. However, the upper wind range of your 5.0 racing sail is probably correct at 30 knots because I usually use a wave 4.7 m2 sail in 25-30 knots of wind (but on a 50 cm wide & 62 L wave board).

All my 5.4-11.0 m2 sails are rigged with an adjustable on-the-fly outhaul system. Even with super negative outhaul and/or downhaul, there are some physic laws that cannot be overturned. Wind speed in knots (nautical miles/hour) are measured on the spot by an hand-held Deuta analog anemometer and such record is double-checked with the windspeed of a closely located website anemometer. Variability is usually ± 0.5 knots. Complete records with wind records and gear being used have been logged since 2003 on http://mytrims.com/sessions/index.asp?uID=230.

Cheers !

JM

[davide]

Originally Posted by mac33

someone on this forum actually agreeing or partly agreeing with me.

Well, you are very very very much more optimistic about the performance of a 5.0 +7.7 quiver than myself! I go for a much wider, a bit over-the-top, quiver 5.5-6.0-6.6-7.3-(8.0) GPS, 5.8 Fire, 5.3-4.7-4.2-3.7 Superfreaks. I do not like to slog and I do like to match sail, wind speed, and board. Only exception is at low wind speed, where I compromise and I do not mind slogging with my "boat", but for performance sailing I think I would need a 9.0 or something to keep up.

PS my Kinetic 58 was a Slalom Ultralight, one the last of the course/slalom breed.

[mac33]

perhaps my windspeeds were wrong.however in very light wind days i sail in a large area of swan river so should be covering wind meter. a few days ago i planed nonstop for first 30 mins and half the time thereafter. when i checked windspeeds on seabreeze.com.au it never once got above 12 knots although it was averaging 10/12. later on it dropped 8/10 this is when i was on/off plane.
i saw a proto 9.5m severne with large cutout clew 225cm that i liked. also severne enigma boom 210/260. no money though. this setup if i can hold it could be awesome in those real light days 5/10.
only recently got into this light wind stuff since bought vehichle to carry 3 boards.
even if wind is non planing i still have a sail.
i have 2 fins a wide 41 and a 52 both carbon, i only use 41 it feels faster when planing.

[Jean-Marc]

Mac33,

I mostly sail on lake Geneva. Home spot area covers about 3-5 km wide x 5-8 km long. It's not uncommon to have different wind speed depending whether I'm near the north shore or the south shore banks on a particular day. For example, I can get 10-15 knots near the north shore and 12-18 knots near the south shore at the same time same day. At my home spot, all wind speed are recorded on-line at www.windspots.com (Switzerland, lake Geneva, Geneva, La Nautique (=south shore), Le Reposoir & Versoix (= North shore) and www.vengeron.net (= north shore). Beware of system glitches or break-down (e.g., flat wind speed recording and it's obviously blowing wind as witnessed by the webcam images)...!

The first thing to do is to verify the accuracy of these on-line anemometers. Post yourself near one of these and record the wind speed + time with your own hand-held anemometer. Compare and check for any discrepancy, i.e., wind recorded on a post at 10 m high is usually a tick stronger than at 1.90-2.10 m high when you hold your anemometer with your hand above your head.

Never believe the wind speed of an on-line website anemometer if you didn't check it's location first hand. In particular, check for possible wind shadow. Depending on the wind direction on a particular day and time, some anemometer are in complete wind shadow and consistently under-report the true wind speed on that day, e.g., especially by offshore wind. Trees, building, anything that can block the clean and steady wind stream around the anemometer will give erratic and unconsistent wind speed records.

Finally, in true 5-10 knots windy days, you will be schlogging 100% of the time at 5 knots wind and planing 100% of the time in 10 knots wind for your 68 kg with a 9.5 m2 sail on your Fanatic 75 cm board + 52 cm fin, no question about it.

Cheers !

JM