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Old 21st December 2009, 02:31 PM   #11
pfaffi
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Hi nonopr!
Nice message!
So you have first experience with that fins on HWR/LWR. Which parameter are working? Rake? SS, S, M or H? Cutted? Compared to 161 and 162.
Thanks pfaffi
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Old 21st December 2009, 11:40 PM   #12
nonopr
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I have used my CR 70cm XS in my HWR is works like a charm. I dont remeber the rake I think is 8 but I will ask the Guys at F4 to see if they can give me the rake on the fin.
I have two versions of the same fin V.1 and V.2 and both have worked perfectly and fast with the best upwind angle so far companre to a R16 70 Deboichet and R13 70cm +8.
I wont buy any more fins unless is a www.f4fins.com
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Old 22nd December 2009, 02:37 AM   #13
Jeffh
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Default Deboichet Fins for LWR/HWR or formula in general

I was looking at the equipment list for the recent Formula Grand Prix in Fortaleza and there are 2 Deboichet fins registered among the 47 fins for the 19 registered racers (4%):

http://www.formulawindsurfing.org/fi...ent%20list.pdf

The most prevalent fin appears to be Kashy: 36 fins (77%).

A similar pattern emerges when you look at the Santa Pola Formula worlds. On first glance, the fin distribution seems more even between Kashy and Deboichet if you look at all competitors (29% Kashy, 23% Deboichet). But if you look at the fins registered by the sailors who finished in the top 20, it's a whole different story: 70% Kashy, 7% Deboichet.

http://www.formulawindsurfing.org/results.php?id=591

Now Deboichet dominated the Formula fin scene just a few years ago, and Remi and others still recommend these fins on these forums. The questions I have are:

1. What happened to Deboichet's dominance? Are they no longer interested in the top levels of formula racing and they are happy selling fins to the middle/bottom of the fleet?
2. Are the Kashy fins really that much better?
3. If the Kashys are that good, why don't others like Deboichet just copy these fins in order to become relevant again? Is that hard to do?
4. Why is getting a good formula fin such a mysterious process? In my own experience it used to be: send email to deboichet, wait many months for a reply, order a fin, wait many months, get a fin. Now it is: send email to Kashy, wait many months, wait many more months, maybe get a reply, die of sticker shock at the price and the 1 year+ wait time...

I hope the newer arrivals like F4 fins can improve some of this...

cheers!
jj
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Old 22nd December 2009, 03:38 AM   #14
nonopr
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Jeffh:
I can assure you if you email Ben from F4 Fins today you will get a reply with in the next two days unless he is out and he will take a bout 3-4 days.
The fin is custom made so to built the right fin for you he will take about a week and then ship it ASAP he finishes it.
I order fins from them that have been order and shipped in less than a week for testing.
Deboichet no longer has the details he used to have with his fins, Kashy does and that is why is so difficult and many times impossible to et a fin in less than 5 months if not a year, plus you have to pay over $1000 to get one if you ever get one.
You pay more or less $700 for an F4 fin and you will get it with in two weeks.
The F4 guys had to do many reapirs in Deboichet fins a few years ago because the fins people got in the USA were not that good of a foil they needed work to get the foil corrected.
Hope this helps making a decision.
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Old 22nd December 2009, 02:46 PM   #15
Karolis
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Jeffh,

Here's my take on your questions:

1) Deboichet first R13 fins were really good, but I think they couldn't cope with increased demand and quality decreased. I know that newer soft R13 fins were as "soft" as older medium R13.
2) Yes, they are really that much better. Worth the price? Not sure.
3) Deboichet tried to copy Kashy with his R20, but fin is not only about the outline. The most important thing for fin is the right lay-up, which would match the foil and rake. And the layup is something that cant be copied that easy. In fact, its the secret behind any good fin. After testing R20 against VMG I found that Deb fin was not powerful enough to lift the board (I am sailing f162). Though it seems quiet good for other free'er riding boards.
4) Not sure why its so hard with Deboichet (or Hurricane), but Kashy is building fins just as a part time job or hobby. Also, all the pros wants one to match their new boards and that does not make it faster either. Things are about to change as there are new fin manufacturers who are serious about customer service. One of them mentioned above (though I don't have any personal experience) and VMG blades, which I am using happily.
Just check out www.vmgblades.com, drop them an email or, even better, an order form to inquire about fins and you will get detailed info about the fins on offer, which of them should suit you by your height, weight, board and sail combo, and, if you're specific enough, your riding style. I am 99% sure you wont be disappointed. Their wait time is a bit longer, I think about one month right now, but they are really accurate and will give you an exact date when your fin will be produced and shipped.

I hope this helps!

Karolis LTU1001
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Old 22nd December 2009, 04:55 PM   #16
Remi
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Hi Jeffh,

On this forum we recommand Deboichet fins for iSonic who was select by our Dream Team Rider and the PWA choice for many differents boards. For the Formula, I just say their is many choice right now on the market and that all the fins who was working on the F160 and F161 will work great on the LWR and HWR.

I like a lot the fact their is many fins choice, this will increase the quality of them, but just afraid that the price and the delay who will not be easy for everybodies.

I know that their is fins in very high quality who is coming on the market soon and at a very competitive price and we will test them with our Dream Team in February. Any way good luck for all to found the right set up for their Formula LWR and HWR.

After this test it will be a pleasure to tell you the best ones we found.

All the best
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Old 23rd December 2009, 04:17 AM   #17
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Hey all, this is Ben from F4 Fins.

I heard there was some talk about our fins so I wanted to just say a few things without being disrespectful to StarBoard's forum or to what other manufacturers are doing.

Nonopr has said a lot of nice things about our fins as have other users in recent threads. He has also sold a number of our fins. Mostly we sell direct to the end user, but we do have a few distributors including nonopr. So to be clear we do business together but I didn't ask him to say such nice things

Jeffh has some good questions and I'll try to answer those and share our experiences...

Deb. did dominate everything for a number of years until Kashy started to make fins (2006). Initially I think Kashy was just tinkering for fun and didn't realize how successful he would be . Either way, his fins were a HUGE innovation. The most important thing is the graduated flex profile which transitions from a very stiff base to a very soft tip. What has given his product longevity is a great foil and the attention to detail needed to make consistently good blades.

By 2007 a good number of sailors in San Francisco had Kashy fins. All these guys were going super fast and in organized head-to-head testing Kashy fins were clearly faster and more controllable when compared to other fins.

Word started to spread about how good his fins were and before long he was booked up and started to raise his prices. Basically, in order to compete at the top of the San Francisco fleet you needed a Kashy but they were expensive and hard to come by.

Nobody in the fleet was really happy about this arrangement so some of the minds started to think about alternatives. One of the guys in our fleet started to build some fins for fun. He made a mold based on a C3 fin and attempted to build blades that flexed like a Kashy.

I used one of this guy's fins in the 2007 Nationals and was first to top mark in almost every race and had some epic battles with the one Pro sailor that was there. Before this fin I was just holding my own in the top 10 (even though I was sailing very well at the time). BUT with this fin I was shot out to the front of the fleet and battling with a Pro. At the time my board was two years old and sails were from the previous season.

After that we got really interested in fins, because they do make a HUGE difference! And fins are the most cost effective way to improve your race results.

So three of us started F4 at the very end of 2007. We had Boogie from C3 design some foils and started trying to perfect the layup.

What I can tell you for sure is making good fins that flex correctly is super difficult! The complexity of the layups is almost mind blowing.

Each fin requires a major time investment for cutting material, laying up the fin, and then finishing the foil. Every part of the process needs to be very measured and accurate or the fins can deviate in any number of ways.

We have super high expectations for our product and it took the better part of 1.5 years of hard work until these expectations were consistently met. This is a big reason why we were not aggressively promoting our fins.

Right now the fins are solid and we feel they match up with anything available. Our fins are winning races and every customer seems to be going faster. The thing we are most excited about is more then 85% of our customers end up ordering more fins.

We have sent fins out to some top Pro riders for testing and the feedback has been excellent. Some of these Pros will be racing on our fins next year based solely on performance (we are too small to pay sponsorships).

BUT, there are also other brands that are making great fins now. Ifju and VMG are the most notable. We have tested against these fins and can tell you they are excellent. These brands are also working with some of the top Pro riders.

Any of these fins (F4, VMG, Ifju) can compete with a Kashy overall. Every fin has a sweet spot so sometimes they won't be as fast as a Kashy but other times they will be faster.

In SF we see this every day in training and constantly on the race course. In 2007 you needed a Kashy to run at the top. In 2009 only one guy in our top 10 was primarily running Kashy. And the vast majority of race wins went to fins other than Kashy.

Right now is an exciting time because some of these newer fins have different lift/drag properties which may work better with the newer boards. So one of these brands may be sitting on the next standout fin, we just don't know yet.

So, to answer Jeffh's questions specifically:

1. What happened to Deboichet's dominance? Are they no longer interested in the top levels of formula racing and they are happy selling fins to the middle/bottom of the fleet?

-Something better was developed, beyond that I can't say.

2. Are the Kashy fins really that much better?

-We don't think they are better then a top tier fin like F4, VMG, or Ifju. But they were that much better as early as last year.

3. If the Kashys are that good, why don't others like Deboichet just copy these fins in order to become relevant again? Is that hard to do?

-This is way harder to do then you can imagine. Also, it may require a big structural change within the company.

4. Why is getting a good formula fin such a mysterious process?

-We don't think it is. We answer all emails and our waiting period is weeks not months (as of right now). If for any reason the fin doesn't meet expectations we will work with you until you are happy.

Anyway, I hope that information helped in some way.

Ben
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Last edited by F4 Fins; 23rd December 2009 at 11:51 AM.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 05:40 AM   #18
nonopr
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I want to add that I pay for my F4 Fins like any other person would. So they dont give me fins for free.
My comments come from experience with the fins and if I dont have a good experience with any fin F4 will work with me to make it better always.
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Old 23rd December 2009, 08:06 AM   #19
Jeffh
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Thanks for all of the great replies guys! That answers a lot of my questions...

Ben, I'll be contacting you shortly about a fin!!

thanks!
jj
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Old 30th December 2009, 03:27 PM   #20
Papounet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffh View Post
1. What happened to Deboichet's dominance? Are they no longer interested in the top levels of formula racing and they are happy selling fins to the middle/bottom of the fleet?
Are they still interested with FW...

The market of Deboichet is clearly slalom now.
More customers and where you need 2 or 3 fin's in FW, you need 3/4 SL4 + 3/4 SL2 + 1/2 R16 in Slalom/race.

The ( small ) factory dont make enough fin's to satisfy the slalom market.
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