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Old 26th April 2010, 11:51 PM   #31
ChrisN
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Mark, appreciate your detailed recommendation. I agree that for most people including myself, Wood would be mostly sufficient, while WC would be a rougher ride as conditions pick up. Yet, as it is also disputed in the Wave /Freestyle community, the light-wind slalom audience also aspires towards the light-weight Kevlar/Carbon constructions.

Given SB's latest Formulas for light-wind are in WoodCarbon, most manufacturers seem to converge of the positive effects of that construction for light-wind and early planning (see the new thread I started on this issue).

So, while Futura 155 can be bought in WC, the highly recommended iS150 is NOT! Notwithstanding, I think I'll go for it!
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Old 26th April 2010, 11:54 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken View Post
Chris, my TR 11.0 will plane at least 2 knots earlier than my 9.2. If I go out in 5-12 knot winds (typical summer winds in Dallas, Texas), I will be planing 80% of the time. If I use my 9.2, planing would be cut to probably 40% of the time.

I have a sailing buddy that weighs about 25 pounds more than me and we are pretty evenly matched speed wise with him on his TR 10.0 and me on my 9.2. However, I can still pump on plane quicker than him. The point being, if you weigh a lot, you need the largest sail the board can manage with good balance for light winds. In your case, the 11.0 will give you a little edge over a 10.0 for early planing. You should also be able to handle an 11.0 up to about 16-18 knots with a little practice.

I am also talking formula race sails that have a much greater range on the top end than freeride sails, especially if you have an adjustable outhaul.
....
Ken thanks for your recommendations for going for the largest sail for the iS150! I'll certainly go for the 11 m2 - most probably the Severne Overdrive 11m2...

Best Regards
ChrisN
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Old 27th April 2010, 01:31 AM   #33
ZedZdeD
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For light wind, you should consider a Phantom Race 320 instead of iSonic or Futura. Since I have one, I sail 10 times more often, always with the excellent sensations of a regatta board, and my iSonic and Futura, useless when wind is not strong or stable enough, whatever their volume, stay most often in the trailer.
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Old 27th April 2010, 05:28 AM   #34
ChrisN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken View Post
....My guess is that starboard may not want to address the WC vs W performance differences since it is pretty marginal for the majority of the consumers. My guess is that 80% of the windsurfers out there would find the wood model more comfortable to sail without sacrificing performance.
...
Ken, I really appreciate your and Mark's point of view on why SB is NOT providing an answer to our simple question. While confort and durability are important consumer values for windsurfing products, we also need honest communications about our higly valued "toys" - just as you folks are about the reasoning behind our choices or options of technology.

Nevertheless, we should not forget what we were discussing. Does WoodCarbon affect at all whether a board will plan earlier (with all the other variables kept constant)? Marketing from all vendors make such statements, while in reality as you mentioned a couple of times, there are no discernible deltas; as you and Belscorpio highlighted - Wood handles chop and gusty winds more smoothly, thus faster for 90% of us in >15 knts.

Below 10 knots you might not need the same smoothness, rather a quicker response and release would be more appreciated as pumping would lead to faster release (in theory!).

If there is some proof on earliest planning per platform (i.e. Serenity/SUPs, Raceboards, Formula, Freeride, Free race/Slalom), it was reported on by the German SURF magazin some time ago. Formula planned from 7 knots, Freeride from 8/9 and Slalom from 9/10 knots (these were averages across a range of testers).
Our questions thus still stands and has been transfered to a new thread. What is the earliest planning platform - iS144 WC or W?
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Old 28th April 2010, 02:15 AM   #35
ZedZdeD
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planning, planning, planning at all costs,
my kingdom for planning one knot earlier,
even if it means ending up with ridiculous gear, excessive in all its characteristics and still not planning

this sad deviation has almost completely destroyed this sport
no, you dont absolutely need planning to have fun on a windsurf
you just need to use gear which fits the conditions
in light to medium, compact raceboards provide by far the best sensations, and the largest versatility

just have a look :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkNTmWXGxVs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0IGYF6HA00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tD687tc7po
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Old 28th April 2010, 06:33 PM   #36
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ZedZdeD, I need to provide you an honest anwer. You posted some really beautifull movies, reminding me of my early days of "easy cruising". I have also sailed longboards and raceboards in the past, yet I didn't find them as fun as shorter boards.

So, while it sounds hillarious with all the focus on "early planning", don't forget that 90% of the worlds windsurfers are on smaller boards (with a reason).

So, let's try to be less polemic and a bit more objective about Raceboards (love your 320 though!). The German SURF magazine, compared in Aug'09 a number of boards in Lake Garda across a number of testers averaging 80 kgs utilizing specialized light-wind equipement. See the boards they tested and some of their results in the Tables attached below...

I very much agree with SURF's verdict on the Raceboards [my translation]:
"The classic raceboard, 3.80 meters long, with an elegant Rail shape as a shipping container... can glide from as little as 4 knots; it runs extremely well up- & downwind and it may plan early in gusts with a folded dagger.
Still, it always seems huge, one simply feels that it was neither developed as a high volume board nor as a pure glider. While for a Raceboard-Cupper it's a must, as an Allround board on the lake with occasional gusts, an alternative. Those who come from shorter planning boards, will be disappointed by the comparatively slow-acting ride & driving experience."
That last sentence reflects my sentiment too. Consequently, I think that your statement about short boards destroying the market is a bit overblown! People like FUN, and fun is heavily related into speed from which some experience an adrenaline kick and freedom. Cruising is "cool", but planning is simply more fun.

I have experienced that SUPs better than Raceoards helps us back into the family-oriented, cruising fun of our Longboards, yet as you have read in the earlier posts they are NOT planning machines, thus not really FUN (given their "wave" oriented scoop-rocker line).

If I was 20 years younger, I would certainly go for Kite-boarding, as these folks are "planning" from very low windspeeds with massive kites at 100 ft up. Given an old Knee injury though, I do prefer Windsurfing as it is MUCH SAFER!

So the question on iS144 Construction and Planning is still unanswered! Read my other thread about the latest on Weight+Construction<>Performance results from SURF (or read the article in German in this PDF link)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Lighwind Test Boards_Surf_0909.jpg (23.6 KB, 24 views)
File Type: jpg Lighwind Test RESULTS_Surf_0909.JPG (21.9 KB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg Lighwind Test RESULTS ALL_Surf_0909.jpg (15.3 KB, 26 views)
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Old 28th April 2010, 11:27 PM   #37
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Zed,

By your logic, we should all be happy with snow ski resorts that only offer green runs. For many of us, human nature drives us to challenge ourselves to try the blue and black runs, since we tend to get bored on the green runs after mastering them.

In windsurfing, most of us want to push to the next level - higher winds, bigger waves, faster speeds, fancier tricks, etc. Not surprisingly, like skiing, we don't go back to the green runs unless that is all the mountain has to offer. If you are an expert skier, will you go to a mountain that only offers green runs? Possibly, if it is the only one close to you, or if you are into freestyle and are beginning to develop your skills, but most of us will not make that choice.

Unlike skiing, windsurfers have to wait for a blue or black day, or even a green day if we are beginners. Could we choose to go out on a green day? Sure, but if I do, it will be on my formula gear so I can plane in 8 knots rather than cruse around on my '85 Mistral Superlight.

It's just a matter of choice and many of us prefer speed over light wind cruising or an SUP.
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Old 29th April 2010, 04:13 AM   #38
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I have nothing against speed, I have iSonic, Futura, Kode, everything and more,

it's just that I don't have the chance to live in a place where conditions are often appropriate for this gear,

and I have wasted enough years staying on the beach with my superbly useless PWA high end gear, or spending afternoons waiting for three times ten seconds of planning

at a certain stage, I just stopped that, I wanted to sail, not just discuss fins lenghts for hours on the ground

I am happy to use my short boards when conditions are appropriate, but now I have something which I can sail every week end, always with great sensations, while most others are lined up on the ground, waiting for the afternoon's burst that they should not miss

meanwhile, as in the past there were on my lake hundreds of windsurfers, from beginners to advanced, all sailing together, now when I am not the last of Mohicans there are in the best case 5 to 10 guys getting bored as they wait for planning, and who eventually stop practising this sport as my closest friends did, due to frustrations resulting from the way they practise it

one of them ended up wishing to sail only with waveboard and 4.5. Fine, but he sailed three times a year, rapidly lost the necessary skills due to lack of training, and eventually stopped

sick evolution
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Old 29th April 2010, 02:04 PM   #39
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Zed, I think that if people LOVE the water and the wind, rather than the pure exhilaration of speed, then they will find ways out there! Your friends are most probably mountain biking currently, which makes them adrenalin junckies

I've also had the same issue as yuour friends though, yet given my love of the sea, I found SUP's to be an excellent entry into that gorgeous element. Now, as soon as wind pick up I throw on the SUP a sail and off we go in playfull manner.

Yet, there is something luring about planning. Weightlessness - a single word describes what one experiences in entering planning. When the pressure decreases in the sail, the board seems to be only slightly sticking to the toes, the body hangs freely in the harness, and you FLY! Now that is FUN just as Ken expounded...

Zed, we don't disagree with your grievances, yet one other part of the gear-tuning focus is to gain access to that weightlessness and satisfy more needs than just being on the water...

Be
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Old 29th April 2010, 06:01 PM   #40
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ChrisN,

I've heard several years ago the following statement:

"For every 1 kg a board weighs less, a rider can weigh 10 kg more to obtain the same plan(n)ing capabilities."

I must admit that I cannot 100% explain it scientifically, nor do I know if this statement is right in the first place.

If I still remember it well, it got something to do with the fact that you can't just add the full weight of the rider with the weight of the board to obtain a total weight of "mass" on wich you could apply the 2nd law of Newton (F=m*a) to calculate the acceleration an object gets when submitted to a constant force.

I think they explained it in a way that your body weight partly get's lifted up by the sail, reducing the actual body weight that can be added to the weight of the board. This is probably a little bit less true when you 're not in planing condition yet, because then your body weight is not really "suspended" to the sail yet that much.

I don't know if I make sense, but I thought I'd mention this as well, since we are dealing with this topic more and more theoretically

Any reactions are welcome.
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