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Old 11th May 2010, 01:49 PM   #11
PG
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You WILL be doing much or most of your sailing in subplaning conditions. That is how the real world. You have to have gear that makes it FUN in those conditions, that is what generates pleasure, generates Time-On-Water, generates skill growth.

The tool to do this is a Phantom 320 (if you buy from the Starboard range). It will take you from a beginner stage with a 6.5 m2 sail (or smaler for your wife) straight up to 8.5 m2 sails for effective lightwind, or blasting in high winds with your 6.5. Based on my experience with long boards (Kone One) I can tell you that speeds up to at least 28-29 knots are perfectly doable on the 320 (and that is fast!).

A P320 is perfect for your wife as well. No worries about that. And if you get a second one you can sail together, cruise all over the lake (a P320 is effective upwind as well), and hone your skills against each other.
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Old 11th May 2010, 08:52 PM   #12
the 5thMan
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PG
I did look at the P320 and wondered about it.
I'm curious why the P320 is not the typical recommendation for someone in my position. Is there something I need to further understand about the Rio vs. Phantom ?
I do have visions of occasionally getting out to the ocean once I get my skills far enough along. Is the Rio better suited for both light wind and occasional ocean use? How does the phantom fare in ocean conditions?
The P320 seems to be a good choice for optimizing light wind flat water lake use.
I need to understand more fully the compromises/advantages of each board and apply this to how I intend to typically use the gear. I realize 95% of my time on the water will be on the lake that is 2 miles from my home.
I've been living next to 3 beautiful lakes within 30 min. drive for over 15 years and almost never get out on any of them except for some fishing time.
I want to get started ! Maybe the thing to do is buy one Rio and one Phantom?
Can someone else chime in here?
Dennis.
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Old 11th May 2010, 09:46 PM   #13
Ken
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Dennis,

Don't get both boards, too much duplication. Roger is the expert here and I have seen him work with beginners and intermediates on many occasions. I would put a lot of trust in what he says.

There is no perfect answer here, just feedback from a broad range of experiences, so you have to consider that we all have our biases.

Ocean use is a double edged venue. Open water or bay cruising, or surf sailing?
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Old 12th May 2010, 12:03 AM   #14
the 5thMan
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Ken
I do realize that there is no concrete answer in this venue. I'm looking to maximize my money and fun. I just need to understand what is the best compromise for myself and wife Elke.
As far as ocean use I probably would stick to bay cruising. I'm pushing 50 so no acrobatics for me. Although the wave thing sure sounds like fun!!
I eagerly wait for more feedback from others willing to share their experiences and advice that will help me in my decision.
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Old 12th May 2010, 12:41 PM   #15
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The ocean is really no different from you lake back home. Especially if it is a protected bay.
Sometimes an ocean can produce waves that are breaking close to shore, but also then it is just long swells outside the break zone.

I cannot see any reason why a Rio would be any better in Ocean conditions than a P320.

I think the reluctance to recommend the P320 comes from the fact that almost everyone that provides these recommendations
- dont't themselves sail any board longer than 250 cm
- Don't themselves ever sail in non-planing conditions
- Have not tried, nor can comprehend, what a longboard with a dagger can do

A bit pointed, but basically true.

When you get to owning two boards it should probably be a P320 and a largish GO. Or then two 320 to go cruising together with your wife on the Lake (it is MUCH more fun to windsurf with someone else!)
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Old 12th May 2010, 01:08 PM   #16
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Hi PG,
I have owned and sailed the first generation Phantom. (I think it was 308 long).
I now have a 2nd generation and a 3rd generation Rio M. I also had the older Rio M that
was simply a Start without the roller wheel on the back.
The 2nd and 3rd generation Rios are much more like a longboard/transition board than the
older Start based Rio.
In my opinion the Rios make a much better transition to a giant shortboard than the Phantom I had.
Please do not put me in your "categories".
I spend at least a hundred hours a year teaching newbies in the "A Taste of Windsurfing".
I sail a Rio M for 4-6 hours per day when teaching.
I sail alot (again a hundred hours or more) in non-planing conditions.
My students learn more (during their first time on the water) in non-planing conditions.
I sailed and raced (got a few trophies to prove it) longboards for several years, and vintage longboards (Tiga Swift, F2 Phoenix 340, F2 Lightning Race and 380 Race, Mistral Superlight) so I miss your category here as well.
Your points are well taken.
The Phantom is a very nice board, I'll have to see if I can try one of the newer ones.
I have tons of experience on the Rio M, and find it exceptional for beginners (once past the super wide early Start with a center fin stage).
I also have sailed the Rio M with a 6.5 m2 in about 20 knots, and not very many shortboards seemed to be getting by me.
So I guess the Rio M might be as fast (faster maybe?) than the Phantom.
Also, I do not know about the availability of the Phantom 320 in the USA.
I do know that there is a stock of Rio M boards.
Hope this helps,
Roger

Last edited by Roger; 12th May 2010 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 12th May 2010, 08:47 PM   #17
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Sorry Roger, I wrote "ALMOST everybody" to be able to exclude you, as I know you have lots of experience of boards with daggers.

It is quite possible that the Rio M offers the same speed as a P320 and a Kona One (which is my board) in 20 knots of wind. I don't see any reason it would not. And I have the same experience as you do, shortboard freeriders need to be pretty good to overtake me on my Kona!

And I do believe that the RIO is an excellent beginners board. And you can take it out in planing conditions.

My point was that I believe it falls well short of a P320 for regular use on a lake in non-planing conditions. There the P320 can benefit from longer waterline, glide, a big and effective centerboard that promotes railing when going upwind.
I feel that the Rio is an excellent stepping stone for shortboard windsurfing, but it is not the end game in the way a P320 can be in a lightwind location.
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Old 12th May 2010, 09:14 PM   #18
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My biggest tip to you, if you want to start sailing before getting lessons, is to buy Jem Hall's "Beginner to Winner" DVD. With it you will learn SO MUCH.

Basically, Jem doesn't miss anything, and I mean anything. You've got chapters for everything from the very basics all the way to jumps and duck jibes, enough to keep you busy for years!

I know how much this DVD helped with my learning curve, as I've never been coached before, and am now jumping, waterstarting, jibing, quicktacking all after 2 years.

I think that with your motivation to start early, this DVD will seriously help you out as you can learn just about every tip a coach can give you and take them with you on the water every time you're out.

Good luck with your windsurfing journey.
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Last edited by agrelon; 12th May 2010 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 12th May 2010, 09:43 PM   #19
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It all comes down to "typical sailing conditions".

Since I can get at least 60-80+ days a year in planing conditions, I only get on my 1985 Superlight longboard when I race in less than 8 knots. My Formula gear certainly helps with those 8-12 knot days.

If I lived in an area where 75% of my sailing opportunities had winds less than 10 knots, I would no doubt buy a new longboard of some type. If I were a novice and lived where 75% of my sailing opportunities had winds over 10 knots, I would get a board that was easy to learn on, but could also offer "short board" type performance when the wind picked up (Rio?).
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Old 13th May 2010, 01:23 AM   #20
the 5thMan
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Well put Ken ...... It all comes down to "typical sailing conditions".

To me this seems to be the biggest consideration.
I'll have to do some homework.
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