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pfaffi
26th November 2009, 04:56 PM
Hi Remi!
Lets start the never ending story about best fins for the new two F-boards. Compared to the fins working best with 162 and 161, which fins you recommend? I am not so much interested in brands, more about stiffness and rake.
I can imagine the HWR needs a bit stiffer fin than best for 162 and same rake and the LWR maybe less raked and more stiff?
Thanks for reply
pfaffi

Remi
27th November 2009, 06:26 AM
Hi Pfaffi,

You may choose the fins from the best one who was working with the F160 and 161.

Now there is so many fins on the market and I didn't try all of them and also each rider have there own style. But good start the one from 160 and 161.

All the best

pfaffi
9th December 2009, 07:02 PM
is there nobody out there who had first contact with LWR/HWR and fin experience with this boards???
Thanks pfaffi

bubi
11th December 2009, 04:54 AM
PFAFFI STAY TUNED ON www.fwa.gr....we will report as soon as posible

Sam Parker
15th December 2009, 04:09 AM
I've only sailed and raced the LWR with the one fin so far and it feels great. VMG K73 cut worked from 8-28 knots. Would have love to have tried the new K70 or even 68 as the wind picked up but all in good time and I don't think the big fin was slow anyway.

The board railed up perfectly and stayed nicely balanced the whole time. Too easy to sail fast this board. Can't wait to sail it more.

Sam.

pfaffi
15th December 2009, 09:20 PM
Hi Sam!
Thanks for your reply!
Pls give me your weight/size to make comparisons.
What size of sail you used? Mast track position?
How feels the board downwind in the outside straps in that strong wind?
Thanks a lot
:-)
pfaffi

Sam Parker
16th December 2009, 07:56 AM
Hey Pfaffi,

The weekend past was mainly on RS Racing Evo2 10.7 with 2 races on the 10 with the track about 1cm back from centre. My weight is 80ish kg at 182cm.

Downwind the LWR felt fast and safe over the water so I could stay in the outside strap without too much drama. Chop was worse on Saturday but it was still ok.

The other cool thing was that LWR didn't lack any depth or height at all compared to my old 162 or other boards racing. Light or strong winds it's a great board.

Sam.

pfaffi
18th December 2009, 12:15 PM
Hi Sam!
Thanks for infos, sounds great!
Did anyone of your friends use the HWR, any comments?
Why you decided to take the LWR and not the HWR?
pfaffi

Sam Parker
19th December 2009, 06:54 AM
Hi Pfaffi,

I chose the LWR as I was looking for a free-er livelier feeling than the 162. I never thought the 162 was slow I just wanted a more fun setup.

A couple of other racers have the HWR but I haven't had the time to try yet. The talk from one who sailed it is that is is particularly good downwind.

Sam.

nonopr
19th December 2009, 09:51 PM
Forget abuout deboichet fins for now. Try www.f4fins.com.

pfaffi
21st December 2009, 03:31 PM
Hi nonopr!
Nice message!
So you have first experience with that fins on HWR/LWR. Which parameter are working? Rake? SS, S, M or H? Cutted? Compared to 161 and 162.
Thanks pfaffi

nonopr
22nd December 2009, 12:40 AM
I have used my CR 70cm XS in my HWR is works like a charm. I dont remeber the rake I think is 8 but I will ask the Guys at F4 to see if they can give me the rake on the fin.
I have two versions of the same fin V.1 and V.2 and both have worked perfectly and fast with the best upwind angle so far companre to a R16 70 Deboichet and R13 70cm +8.
I wont buy any more fins unless is a www.f4fins.com

Jeffh
22nd December 2009, 03:37 AM
I was looking at the equipment list for the recent Formula Grand Prix in Fortaleza and there are 2 Deboichet fins registered among the 47 fins for the 19 registered racers (4%):

http://www.formulawindsurfing.org/filez/results/091125/equipment%20list.pdf

The most prevalent fin appears to be Kashy: 36 fins (77%).

A similar pattern emerges when you look at the Santa Pola Formula worlds. On first glance, the fin distribution seems more even between Kashy and Deboichet if you look at all competitors (29% Kashy, 23% Deboichet). But if you look at the fins registered by the sailors who finished in the top 20, it's a whole different story: 70% Kashy, 7% Deboichet.

http://www.formulawindsurfing.org/results.php?id=591

Now Deboichet dominated the Formula fin scene just a few years ago, and Remi and others still recommend these fins on these forums. The questions I have are:

1. What happened to Deboichet's dominance? Are they no longer interested in the top levels of formula racing and they are happy selling fins to the middle/bottom of the fleet?
2. Are the Kashy fins really that much better?
3. If the Kashys are that good, why don't others like Deboichet just copy these fins in order to become relevant again? Is that hard to do?
4. Why is getting a good formula fin such a mysterious process? In my own experience it used to be: send email to deboichet, wait many months for a reply, order a fin, wait many months, get a fin. Now it is: send email to Kashy, wait many months, wait many more months, maybe get a reply, die of sticker shock at the price and the 1 year+ wait time...

I hope the newer arrivals like F4 fins can improve some of this...

cheers!
jj

nonopr
22nd December 2009, 04:38 AM
Jeffh:
I can assure you if you email Ben from F4 Fins today you will get a reply with in the next two days unless he is out and he will take a bout 3-4 days.
The fin is custom made so to built the right fin for you he will take about a week and then ship it ASAP he finishes it.
I order fins from them that have been order and shipped in less than a week for testing.
Deboichet no longer has the details he used to have with his fins, Kashy does and that is why is so difficult and many times impossible to et a fin in less than 5 months if not a year, plus you have to pay over $1000 to get one if you ever get one.
You pay more or less $700 for an F4 fin and you will get it with in two weeks.
The F4 guys had to do many reapirs in Deboichet fins a few years ago because the fins people got in the USA were not that good of a foil they needed work to get the foil corrected.
Hope this helps making a decision.

Karolis
22nd December 2009, 03:46 PM
Jeffh,

Here's my take on your questions:

1) Deboichet first R13 fins were really good, but I think they couldn't cope with increased demand and quality decreased. I know that newer soft R13 fins were as "soft" as older medium R13.
2) Yes, they are really that much better. Worth the price? Not sure.
3) Deboichet tried to copy Kashy with his R20, but fin is not only about the outline. The most important thing for fin is the right lay-up, which would match the foil and rake. And the layup is something that cant be copied that easy. In fact, its the secret behind any good fin. After testing R20 against VMG I found that Deb fin was not powerful enough to lift the board (I am sailing f162). Though it seems quiet good for other free'er riding boards.
4) Not sure why its so hard with Deboichet (or Hurricane), but Kashy is building fins just as a part time job or hobby. Also, all the pros wants one to match their new boards and that does not make it faster either. Things are about to change as there are new fin manufacturers who are serious about customer service. One of them mentioned above (though I don't have any personal experience) and VMG blades, which I am using happily.
Just check out www.vmgblades.com, drop them an email or, even better, an order form to inquire about fins and you will get detailed info about the fins on offer, which of them should suit you by your height, weight, board and sail combo, and, if you're specific enough, your riding style. I am 99% sure you wont be disappointed. Their wait time is a bit longer, I think about one month right now, but they are really accurate and will give you an exact date when your fin will be produced and shipped.

I hope this helps!

Karolis LTU1001

Remi
22nd December 2009, 05:55 PM
Hi Jeffh,

On this forum we recommand Deboichet fins for iSonic who was select by our Dream Team Rider and the PWA choice for many differents boards. For the Formula, I just say their is many choice right now on the market and that all the fins who was working on the F160 and F161 will work great on the LWR and HWR.

I like a lot the fact their is many fins choice, this will increase the quality of them, but just afraid that the price and the delay who will not be easy for everybodies.

I know that their is fins in very high quality who is coming on the market soon and at a very competitive price and we will test them with our Dream Team in February. Any way good luck for all to found the right set up for their Formula LWR and HWR.

After this test it will be a pleasure to tell you the best ones we found.

All the best

F4 Fins
23rd December 2009, 05:17 AM
Hey all, this is Ben from F4 Fins.

I heard there was some talk about our fins so I wanted to just say a few things without being disrespectful to StarBoard's forum or to what other manufacturers are doing.

Nonopr has said a lot of nice things about our fins as have other users in recent threads. He has also sold a number of our fins. Mostly we sell direct to the end user, but we do have a few distributors including nonopr. So to be clear we do business together but I didn't ask him to say such nice things:)

Jeffh has some good questions and I'll try to answer those and share our experiences...

Deb. did dominate everything for a number of years until Kashy started to make fins (2006). Initially I think Kashy was just tinkering for fun and didn't realize how successful he would be . Either way, his fins were a HUGE innovation. The most important thing is the graduated flex profile which transitions from a very stiff base to a very soft tip. What has given his product longevity is a great foil and the attention to detail needed to make consistently good blades.

By 2007 a good number of sailors in San Francisco had Kashy fins. All these guys were going super fast and in organized head-to-head testing Kashy fins were clearly faster and more controllable when compared to other fins.

Word started to spread about how good his fins were and before long he was booked up and started to raise his prices. Basically, in order to compete at the top of the San Francisco fleet you needed a Kashy but they were expensive and hard to come by.

Nobody in the fleet was really happy about this arrangement so some of the minds started to think about alternatives. One of the guys in our fleet started to build some fins for fun. He made a mold based on a C3 fin and attempted to build blades that flexed like a Kashy.

I used one of this guy's fins in the 2007 Nationals and was first to top mark in almost every race and had some epic battles with the one Pro sailor that was there. Before this fin I was just holding my own in the top 10 (even though I was sailing very well at the time). BUT with this fin I was shot out to the front of the fleet and battling with a Pro. At the time my board was two years old and sails were from the previous season.

After that we got really interested in fins, because they do make a HUGE difference! And fins are the most cost effective way to improve your race results.

So three of us started F4 at the very end of 2007. We had Boogie from C3 design some foils and started trying to perfect the layup.

What I can tell you for sure is making good fins that flex correctly is super difficult! The complexity of the layups is almost mind blowing.

Each fin requires a major time investment for cutting material, laying up the fin, and then finishing the foil. Every part of the process needs to be very measured and accurate or the fins can deviate in any number of ways.

We have super high expectations for our product and it took the better part of 1.5 years of hard work until these expectations were consistently met. This is a big reason why we were not aggressively promoting our fins.

Right now the fins are solid and we feel they match up with anything available. Our fins are winning races and every customer seems to be going faster. The thing we are most excited about is more then 85% of our customers end up ordering more fins.

We have sent fins out to some top Pro riders for testing and the feedback has been excellent. Some of these Pros will be racing on our fins next year based solely on performance (we are too small to pay sponsorships).

BUT, there are also other brands that are making great fins now. Ifju and VMG are the most notable. We have tested against these fins and can tell you they are excellent. These brands are also working with some of the top Pro riders.

Any of these fins (F4, VMG, Ifju) can compete with a Kashy overall. Every fin has a sweet spot so sometimes they won't be as fast as a Kashy but other times they will be faster.

In SF we see this every day in training and constantly on the race course. In 2007 you needed a Kashy to run at the top. In 2009 only one guy in our top 10 was primarily running Kashy. And the vast majority of race wins went to fins other than Kashy.

Right now is an exciting time because some of these newer fins have different lift/drag properties which may work better with the newer boards. So one of these brands may be sitting on the next standout fin, we just don't know yet.

So, to answer Jeffh's questions specifically:

1. What happened to Deboichet's dominance? Are they no longer interested in the top levels of formula racing and they are happy selling fins to the middle/bottom of the fleet?

-Something better was developed, beyond that I can't say.

2. Are the Kashy fins really that much better?

-We don't think they are better then a top tier fin like F4, VMG, or Ifju. But they were that much better as early as last year.

3. If the Kashys are that good, why don't others like Deboichet just copy these fins in order to become relevant again? Is that hard to do?

-This is way harder to do then you can imagine. Also, it may require a big structural change within the company.

4. Why is getting a good formula fin such a mysterious process?

-We don't think it is. We answer all emails and our waiting period is weeks not months (as of right now). If for any reason the fin doesn't meet expectations we will work with you until you are happy.

Anyway, I hope that information helped in some way.

Ben

nonopr
23rd December 2009, 06:40 AM
I want to add that I pay for my F4 Fins like any other person would. So they dont give me fins for free.
My comments come from experience with the fins and if I dont have a good experience with any fin F4 will work with me to make it better always.

Jeffh
23rd December 2009, 09:06 AM
Thanks for all of the great replies guys! That answers a lot of my questions...

Ben, I'll be contacting you shortly about a fin!!

thanks!
jj

Papounet
30th December 2009, 04:27 PM
1. What happened to Deboichet's dominance? Are they no longer interested in the top levels of formula racing and they are happy selling fins to the middle/bottom of the fleet?

Are they still interested with FW...

The market of Deboichet is clearly slalom now.
More customers and where you need 2 or 3 fin's in FW, you need 3/4 SL4 + 3/4 SL2 + 1/2 R16 in Slalom/race.

The ( small ) factory dont make enough fin's to satisfy the slalom market.

pfaffi
3rd January 2010, 05:20 PM
....... interested in FW?

its more difficult now to make a perfect fin. In the past the FW fins were stiff just with horizontal lift. The new extreme wide body FW shapes with flat scoop rocker lines need also vertical lift to run free and smooth. So the fins must flex a lot to create this vertical lift with the correct rake and should not twist by this extreme flex. Thats the job for the all fin development now. Some of the fin producers got this new aspects and some did not understand that task. The risk is to make a super soft fin which may break by this high flex. So a very good layup of reinforcement is asked.

(my newest G1 fin is flexing under full force (184cm, 91kg) up to 35cm to each side!!!
Compare my older underwater video of my F1 fin in M+ stiffness (that fin flexes up to 20cm each side)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFB3PLmz9Ss

pfaffi
5th January 2010, 04:53 PM
see pic of my G1 Formula Fin
M+ 70cm
9,8 sqm: H
11,0 sqm: M
11,7 sqm: S

pfaffi
23rd February 2010, 04:39 PM
Hey Guys!
Nobody here to give us first fin-experience whats running in HWR/LWR ????

(In two weeks we will start the first rollouts with HWR/LWR in Austria, ice on the lake still here!)

pfaffi

nonopr
23rd February 2010, 05:39 PM
In my HWR i am running with F4 fins CR 70 Xs.
http://www.f4fins.com

pfaffi
23rd February 2010, 08:22 PM
Hi nonopr!
Compared to your former board, 162 (161,160)?? do you use the same fin? Different Rake, Stiffness, Flex, Cut down?
THANKS PFAFFI

Karolis
24th February 2010, 04:16 AM
pfaffi, VMG blades team has been testing fins for HWR, LWR and other new boards for some time now and I heard they came up with some really good fins, which work on pretty much every board out there. I think even Wilhelm Schurman bought one after testing it in Australia. I ordered one for myself, though I am still not sure if I am going to get the HWR board or stick with my old 162.

Talking about fin compatibility - HWR is based on 161 board and fins that worked with that one will work with HWR too. So you can even use R13 fin in it successfully (not like with 162). In other words, the board is not so fin sensitive as 162. Still, to get the best performance, you will want to use modern fins.

nonopr
24th February 2010, 04:48 AM
Hi nonopr!
Compared to your former board, 162 (161,160)?? do you use the same fin? Different Rake, Stiffness, Flex, Cut down?
THANKS PFAFFI

My last board was a 162, did not like it but since I paid for it I had to use it. For that board I had also an CR 70 Xtra Soft fin. Not cut. But it was the version 1 of that fin which had a rake of between 8 and 9.5 and it work really well.
In my HWR I am using the Version 2 of this fin which has a different flex and the same size 70cm and Xtra Soft. It is a lot faster than a Deb 13 and Deb 16. Easier to get going and keep the angle upwind. Downwind is very fast.

How are you fins doing? The Photo of the fin looks good. you can send me one for testing if you want.
Thanks

pfaffi
2nd March 2010, 09:09 PM
Hi nonopr!
See www.pfaffi.at for further fin info.
BR pfaffi

ambitionos
29th March 2010, 03:19 PM
i sailed this weekend my new HWR with Deboichet R13+6 Soft 70cm (Fin from 2008/2009) and a 9.0mē Warp 2009.
It was very good. Other Drivers with old Formula Boards, who drives my combination ,are very
happy about the performance.

They said it will goes faster than the 162er.
But the HWR loves much power in the Sail, then he goes faster and faster.

This is my first Formula Board and i wonder how easy to use.


Greetz

Thorsten

pfaffi
1st April 2010, 02:35 PM
yesterday I received my new Formulas, HWR & LWR:
exciting weights!!!
HWR: 8,80 kg (catalogue 8,88)
LWR: 8,90 kg (catalogue 9,07)

http://www.pfaffi.at/pfaffi_fins/Blog/Eintrage/2010/4/1_Formula_HWR_%26_LWR_arrived!.html

Now I will start fin testing.
Will be very interesting how a perfect 162 fin will work on HWR!?

pfaffi

Dave K
22nd April 2010, 07:09 PM
Hi all,
I'm back on line with Starboard, for some reason I could not log on but that is fixed now! Thanks IT Guys.

Because my wife and I decided to host a Formula Windsurfing event we had a web site made. That work was done by Javier of "Right Brain Communications" I highly recommend him for web site development for anyone looking. Anyway, you can find more info about my fins and pricing and delivery as well as technical details with out all the gossip and rumors (some of which are actually true!). see www.kashyfins.com

I do have an LWR and an HWR but have only ridden each once.

The day I rode the LWR was with a 9.0 meter K70XS-T0 4.0 it worked well but was too big a fin except in the lulls where it was fine.

The day I rode the HWR was with an 11.8 meter and I used a K70XS-T8 at 4.0 again it worked well.

Unfortunately when I say worked well I really can't say how well since I have no one that is competitive with me to test with. But I do get feed back from lots of pros and top level amatuers and I do take that info into account when suggesting fins for customers.

Also follow my event which is linked from the same web-site

Dave

agrelon
22nd April 2010, 07:54 PM
Hi Dave,

I just checked out the Design PDF and I'm really impressed by the detail you go into with regards to different aspects of design.

Is 800USD the price of a single fin?

Cheers,

Adrien