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Old 12th September 2009, 02:11 AM   #1
mac33
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i weigh 67kg and sail 5m race sail[vapor] in winds from 13 to 30 knots. in lighter winds 13/18 i use a little less downhaul and heaps/max of negative outhaul to get me planning quickly and through lulls. i find this combo works better for my weight than say using a 6.5 and having to sheet out in gusts. other advantages smaller sail is less tiring to use,can use smaller fin, has way better feel,has less drag resulting in higher top end speed. i feel there is a some peer/macho thing in w/surf to use a bigger sail than is needed. most people 70kg and under have no need to use anything bigger its just a macho thing . a 5metre with less downhaul will also point upwind better than a 6.5 with loose leech i believe. anyone share my opinion.
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Old 12th September 2009, 03:10 AM   #2
Floyd
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Cool

But Mac
You are the one posting about sails you can use !!!! (Irony is a wonderfull thing)
I would love to be able to use a 5 metre when (70kg) mates are on 5`s. I have to "cope" with a 6.5 for anything like similar performance to them.
There`s nothing macho about it ; its all about weight !!!!! (My not inconsiderable 105k of it)

PS thats a hell of a range for one sail/board combo !!!! 13 to 30 knots.!!! I would need 3 sails and 2 boards to cover that !!!! (Guess 7 ; 6 and 5 ) (A true 30 knots and I`d easily be on a 5 ????)

Reckon you need a new anerometer !!!!

Or I need a 5 metre and board like yours ?????
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Old 12th September 2009, 04:49 AM   #3
Screamer
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Mac33
Can you organize a clinic where we can attend and hopefully learn something?
;-)
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Old 12th September 2009, 11:08 PM   #4
Ken
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Mac33,

What board(s) do you have that cover 13 to 30 knots? Hard to believe that at 67 kg, you can hang on to a 5.0 in 30 knots. Occasional gusts - yes. Steady 30 - no way without luffing all the time.

I guess I am one of those "macho" guys since I would use a 11.0 in 13 knots and a 4.0 in 30 knots. I weigh 78 kg.

In between I have - 9.2, 8.4, 7.6, 6.6, 5.7, 5.0, 4.5. Some of these (smaller ones) are quite old and don't get much use so they last a long time.

Also, at 13 knots of wind, I am traveling at 24-26 knots of board speed (gps speeds) on my formula board and 11.0. I doubt you can match that performance with a 5.0.

I do have a light weight buddy about your size that covers a very broad range of wind (10 - 30 knots) with a 6.5, 5.7, 4.5 & 3.8. He also uses three board in this range. One sail simply won't provide the appropriate power in 13 - 30 knots. You have to sacrafice too much at both ends of the range.
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Old 13th September 2009, 04:19 AM   #5
mac33
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i use 52 wide kinetic slalom in 16/30 knots and 58 wide[5.5kg] in around 12/16 knots both with 5.0 vapor. i have 5.8rs6 but prefer light feel of 5m. i do plane in this light wind with 5m perhaps not as much as with 5.8. i also own 7.7 severne cr2 which i use with fanatic falcon 75 wide,8kg and 41fin . i just bought this sail last week and to my surprise it starts to plane in around 7 /8 knots, fully powered up in 10knots.checked these wind speeds on seabreeze. com.au so i think what i am saying is correct.can hold 5m in 20/25 and just survive [max downhaul] in 25/30.lightweight equip boards, base, mast is one secret along with heaps negative outhaul.i was planning the other day not quite as early as guy on 11.0m. he had a good bit more downhaul than me. he could not believe i was planning with 7.7m.
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Old 26th September 2009, 09:33 AM   #6
davide
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i use 52 wide kinetic slalom in 16/30 knots and 58 wide[5.5kg] in around 12/16 knots both with 5.0 vapor. i have 5.8rs6 but prefer light feel of 5m. i do plane in this light wind with 5m perhaps not as much as with 5.8. i also own 7.7 severne cr2 which i use with fanatic falcon 75 wide,8kg and 41fin . i just bought this sail last week and to my surprise it starts to plane in around 7 /8 knots, fully powered up in 10knots.checked these wind speeds on seabreeze. com.au so i think what i am saying is correct.can hold 5m in 20/25 and just survive [max downhaul] in 25/30.lightweight equip boards, base, mast is one secret along with heaps negative outhaul.i was planning the other day not quite as early as guy on 11.0m. he had a good bit more downhaul than me. he could not believe i was planning with 7.7m.
Hi Mac33, I am 6 pounds heavier than you, to compare I sail a CA SL 52 (and a 58), Isonic-111 and an old Mike Lab 76cm wide (probably 130L). I owned both a Kinetic 52 and 58 Slalom (2003 UL/110L), and a Sonic 52.

For me the CA 52 (and Kinetic and Sonic 52) are optimal with a 5.5, they can well use a 6.0, a bit uncomfortable and easily overcame by a 6.6. A 5.0 works (I have a HOT Superspeed) but I am generally very happy and well balanced with a 5.5/6.0 (Hot Sails GPS). 30 knots? I am not sure I have what it takes.

My Kinetic 58 was quite a big board (probably different from yours) and was surprisingly quick to plane with a small sail. However the optimal sail size was a 7.0-7.3. The 5.5 I occasionally used when too lazy to re-rig was a bit too small to control the board if the wind came back; never used a 5.0 on it. Good parallel for my Kinetic 58 is a Is-101. By the way my IS-111 would of course carry a bigger sail, but also be much more controllable than the Kinetic. My current CA 58 is probably similar to your kinetic, it works with 6.0-6.5, 5.5 is unbalanced, 5.0 I never tried.

Coming to your light air performance: my ML was quite amazing with a 8.0 and a 50 cm fin. I am not sure about 8 knots, but I am sure that I do not want to go out with a 10. My max sail is 7.3 right now. that works with the ML and a 44 fin, but I did loose low end and probably will buy again an 8.0 next year, although, lucky where I live, it would be for a few days/year.

So, in summary, give or take a few knots your observations sort of match mine, although my minimal quiver for slalom would be 5.5 - 6.6 - 8.0, your choice 5.0 - (5.8) - 7.7 would not work well for me.

Last edited by davide; 26th September 2009 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 26th September 2009, 10:02 PM   #7
mac33
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someone on this forum actually agreeing or partly agreeing with me.
finian and screamer will be next be telling you to open up a clinic so we can learn to rig it wrong.
you say the smaller sizes 5.0 and 5.5 on 58wide board feel unbalanced,loss of control. another way of saying this is board with light rig when powered up starts lifting very high out of water. this is true i find but its exactly what i am looking for.its good for surfing chop and swell. the only way i have chance of beating big blokes for speed is when we hit large chop/swell this is where the extra lift of this combo comes in handy for surfing over it.
it does take time to get used to lift of small sail/larger board. if you get max weight in harness to nose of board in gusts it should help to stop board from taking off.
this combo is also great for gybing in lulls and for planning early.
my kinetics are race model not freeride edition.i have tried carbonart52 and 44.they were good but still prefer my kinetics. i am trying jp 84 litre slalom its very fast in flat water appalling control in chop, thats 07 model. i also owned starboard 52. it edged kinetic in flattish water, kinetic had definite edge in choppy water.
my light wind board fanatic falcon 75 wide is 152 litres volume. checked windspeeds on seabreeze website on numerous occasions it does plane in around 8 knots with 7.7m rigged with no outhaul/ downhaul.overpowers though in around 12 knots.
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Old 27th September 2009, 03:05 AM   #8
Jean-Marc
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my light wind board fanatic falcon 75 wide is 152 litres volume. checked windspeeds on seabreeze website on numerous occasions it does plane in around 8 knots with 7.7m rigged with no outhaul/ downhaul.overpowers though in around 12 knots.
Mac33,

Your achievments sounds very impressive but I strongly doubt about the wind speed recording. Something must be wrong with the calibration of the "seabreeze" website wind anemometer. It clearly sounds to me that either the anemometer is off-scale and needs an urgent tune-up or that your actual sailing venue is far away from the location of the anemometer. In short : you are clearly underestimating the true wind speed while sailing.

Being a light weight myself at 65 kg, I need 7 knots of constant wind to start and sustain the planing with a 77 cm wide board and a Code Red 11 m2 sail and I get completely overpowered above 12-13 knots. With the same 77 cm wide board, the wind range is 10-15 knots with an 8.2 m2 race sail or 11-17+ knots with a Code Red 7.7 m2 sail. I've never been able to start and sustain the planing as of 7 knots of wind with anything smaller than a 10.6 m2 sail, and certainly not as of 8 knots with a 7.7 m2 sail, no matter how baggy the downhaul has been set up.

Furthermore, the wind range with a 5.4m2 sail on the same 77 cm wide board is about 18-25 knots of wind. I'm unable to start and sustain the planing as of 12 knots with such a sail. Therefore, I have very strong doubt about the planing ability in the low wind range as reported with your 5.0 or 5.8 m2 racing sail, sorry about that again. However, the upper wind range of your 5.0 racing sail is probably correct at 30 knots because I usually use a wave 4.7 m2 sail in 25-30 knots of wind (but on a 50 cm wide & 62 L wave board).

All my 5.4-11.0 m2 sails are rigged with an adjustable on-the-fly outhaul system. Even with super negative outhaul and/or downhaul, there are some physic laws that cannot be overturned. Wind speed in knots (nautical miles/hour) are measured on the spot by an hand-held Deuta analog anemometer and such record is double-checked with the windspeed of a closely located website anemometer. Variability is usually 0.5 knots. Complete records with wind records and gear being used have been logged since 2003 on http://mytrims.com/sessions/index.asp?uID=230.

Cheers !

JM

Last edited by Jean-Marc; 27th September 2009 at 05:28 AM. Reason: typos
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Old 27th September 2009, 03:35 AM   #9
davide
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someone on this forum actually agreeing or partly agreeing with me.
Well, you are very very very much more optimistic about the performance of a 5.0 +7.7 quiver than myself! I go for a much wider, a bit over-the-top, quiver 5.5-6.0-6.6-7.3-(8.0) GPS, 5.8 Fire, 5.3-4.7-4.2-3.7 Superfreaks. I do not like to slog and I do like to match sail, wind speed, and board. Only exception is at low wind speed, where I compromise and I do not mind slogging with my "boat", but for performance sailing I think I would need a 9.0 or something to keep up.

PS my Kinetic 58 was a Slalom Ultralight, one the last of the course/slalom breed.

Last edited by davide; 27th September 2009 at 03:41 AM.
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Old 13th September 2009, 04:59 AM   #10
Screamer
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Impressive
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