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Old 9th October 2008, 06:05 AM   #1
jogi1111
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Default Why does my weight affects the sailrange of a board ?

Hi Starboard Team,

how come, that the upper sailrange of a board is depending on the weight of the surfer ?

The answer for the lower sailrange is quite clear: heavier surfers can handle a specific board even with a very small sail, means in higher winds, when lighter sailors start losing control.

But what in very light winds and with the upper sailrange ?


Just to make my question clear:
Take the iS122. The "official" sailrange rans from 6.0 to 9.5
Take a rider with 70 kg and he would have no problem to sail a 11.0 on that board at light wind (I can !)
But take one guy with 100 kg - and he should better not go further than the 9.5, 'cause it starts getting uncomfortably for him.

Do you have any idea (even weird ones) how this effect might be explained ?


Cheers Jogi
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Last edited by jogi1111; 9th October 2008 at 06:43 AM.
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Old 9th October 2008, 04:29 PM   #2
Screamer
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Jogi

Have you ever felt you've put a sail too big on any board? What happens then and how do you know it's too big? You gain nothing in early planing, handling is horrible, you may even start to sink.
Heavier riders will experience this with smaller sails than you. There's simply way too much weight and bulk on a board to carry. No scientific explanation here, but tried and tested many times.

Btw, I don't think that you can use 11m on an iS122 efficiently at any body weight. There are much better boards for that.
With regard to quoted sail ranges, I think they are a bit stretched: I use iS122 (85kg) and I think its ideal sail range is 7.0-9.0, maybe 9.5 if you're lighter.

Last edited by Screamer; 9th October 2008 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 9th October 2008, 05:03 PM   #3
Jean-Marc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jogi1111 View Post
Take the iS122. Take a rider with 70 kg and he would have no problem to sail a 11.0 on that board at light wind (I can !)
Jogi,

I respectfully disagree. The iSonic 122W75 paired with a Select RS7 55 cm fin and a Code Red 11m2 sail is a total pig when sailing upwind: zero upwind pointing ability. By comparison, HS105 is vastly superior (a few degree less than a dedicated FW) followed by iSonic133W85. Rail shape, scoop-rocker line, deep concave with a center spine, overall hull lenght, mast-track and footstraps inserts positioning more on the back of HS105 are apparently important contributors to such a large difference. Planing as of 7 knots is no problems with any of the 3 hulls with my 65 kg, however.

Upper wind range is as follows: HS105 (5.4 sail+ 26 cm fin) 25 knots > iSonic122W75 (6.6 sail + 32 cm fin) 20 knots > iSonic 133W85 (8.2 sail + 40 cm fin) 15+ knots. Wider and thicker boards just become less and less controlable in higher wind and chop, especially with too large a fin for me. Very small fins do not work on super wide flat-bottomed iSonic whereas they do work as a charm on the HS105 for my light weight.

As for a heavy weight 105 kg pal, he's on a FW + Code Red 11m2 sail in such light wind. Forget using small HS105 or iSonic 122/133: he just sink them all which is plenty inefficient in low wind range. Just to show that 40 kg body weight difference means a lot: to be on par with medium 12-18 knots wind, he's on a Carve 162 + 52 cm fin + 9.5 m2 sail combo while I'm on Kombat 86 + 30 cm fin + 6.9 m2 sail combo.

Cheers !

JM

Last edited by Jean-Marc; 9th October 2008 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 9th October 2008, 09:35 PM   #4
jogi1111
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Hi Jean-Marc,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean-Marc View Post
...The iSonic 122W75 paired with a Select RS7 55 cm fin and a Code Red 11m2 sail is a total pig when sailing upwind: zero upwind pointing ability. By comparison, HS105 is vastly superior ...
I totally agree ! ("No problem" was not, what I really meant. "Could be sailed" would have been better ...)
And what type of board will be perfect for me to ride a 11.0m sail, might be my next question to you, especially, as you might be in my weight range

Here, it's more about the effect, that lighter surfers can (more or less) comfortably sail bigger sails on the same board than heavy weighters. How come ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean-Marc View Post
As for a heavy weight 105 kg pal ... Forget using small HS105 or iSonic 122/133: he just sink ...
That's right - and the iS122 might be not the best example for the effect, I described earlier. But anyway: the effect is there, but it seems to be tough to get a scientific explanation for that ...

But you could be on the right track: the more a board sinks in, the more the centerpoint of the lateral plan (combination of the side of the board being in water and the fin area) will move towards the front of the board - and that might lead to the described effect !?

@Screamer:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Screamer View Post
Have you ever felt you've put a sail too big on any board? What happens then and how do you know it's too big?
Well, I do that pretty often. What happens is, that it gets more tricky not to turn upwind and your stance have to be pretty uncomfortable. The risk to be catapulted is rising due to your stance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Screamer View Post
You gain nothing in early planing, handling is horrible, you may even start to sink.
I would say: a 9.0m is too big for the S-Type 104 - right ?
But actually, I can and do go out with my 9.0 on that board, when I don't have my 69cm wide SL board by hand - and the 9.0 is a quite better performer in light winds than my 7.8m - even on the S-Type 104 !
It's not too comfortable - but I can manage that with 73 Kg. Try that with 100 Kg - and you are absolutely right: it's horrible !

But on the end, it's a question of definition: when I can go faster with a bigger sail, you might call it "not too big for me" ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Screamer View Post
Heavier riders will experience this with smaller sails than you. There's simply way too much weight and bulk on a board to carry. No scientific explanation here, but tried and tested many times.
Exactly !!!
May be, it's all about, how deep the board will sink in ... ?


Cheers Jogi
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Last edited by jogi1111; 9th October 2008 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 10th October 2008, 12:16 AM   #5
Screamer
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I have a 95kg mate, he is an experienced racer. I've seen him use 11m sail on a 105lit hyper, 8.8 sail on an old, narrow 95lit Thommen slalom, and four-cam 6.7 North Warp on an 87lit Kombat (I've tried some of these combos). All this was for fun of course, well- to overpowered, and I'm sure there was no gain in early planing, while the handling was terrible (sinking up to his crotch in lulls). He was also much faster with appropriately sized rig (for the conditions/boards).
Not recommended under any circumstances.

I'm very much surprised sType105 is usable at all under a 9m. I thought for most people it's a 6-7m board.
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Old 10th October 2008, 03:48 AM   #6
jogi1111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Screamer View Post
I'm very much surprised sType105 is usable at all under a 9m. I thought for most people it's a 6-7m board.
The official sailrange for the S-Type 104 goes from 4.5 to 6.8m. I personally love it most with a 6.5 race sail, and often I run it with 5.7 to 7.8m. I'm using GPS - and good powered up, the 7.8 runs faster on the S-Type than on my 69cm wide Slalomboard

For the recommended 4.5m sail (=lower sailrange limit), I would never use my S-Type 104: I would go down to 86 Liters or less. I guess, it's all a question of the riders weight.

Okay - the 9.0 is not my regular sail for this S-Type; especially for unsteady conditions, my wider SL board does it much better. But you can go out with the S-Type 104 and 9.0m to chase your GPS records, circle your race gybes and have fun - beginners and heavy weights excluded. Upwind abillities - who cares ? I always come back, where I started from.

Anyone out there, who could explain the effect...
...that lighter sailors do have a different sailrange than heavier ones - on the same board

... or at least other sailors, who can realize this effect at themselves.


Cheers Jogi
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Old 10th October 2008, 02:15 PM   #7
kvda
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For me at 85 kgs, the isonic 125 can pretty well be sailed with 9.8, but the difference in planing abilities compared with my RS Slalom 8.4 is small- if even existing. So I prefer the 8.4 even in the lightest winds.

I did own the s-type 104 and wasn't able to manage bigger than 7.2 on this board, 7.8 was to big and 9.0 ... ough. But smaller than a 5.4 didn't work for me, the board got bumpy. In fact, my futura 101 handles bigger sails (RS4 7.8 on F101 is great) AND smaller sails better than the s-type 104.
So apart from the weight stuff, preferences, surfspot and personal style is a big issue.
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Old 10th October 2008, 04:23 PM   #8
jogi1111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kvda View Post
So apart from the weight stuff, preferences, surfspot and personal style is a big issue.
You are right - and that's the problem:
The weight effect for the sailrange is there, but it's hard to say, how big it is, as many other things like experience, sailing technic, outline and volume of the board and all what you mentioned above will also affect the sailrange.

As far as I could learned here, the influence of the sailors weight might be best ascribed by two factors:
1.) The more excess volume a board have, the more stable it is (if all other things are equal). If you are light weighted, the same board is more stable to you, than for a heavier surfer. You will be able to tilt the sail further to the nose to keep the board from turning into the wind, the heavier one might sink in, while pushing more weight onto the bow of the board. So - a light weighted could handle bigger sails easier, 'cause the board is much more stable for him.
2.) When a board sinks in more due to the heavier weight of the sailor, the lateral plan of the combination "side of the board in water plus fin area" move forward. This leads to the need to tilt the sail even further to the bow of the board, than light weights have to do (to get a trimmed board).

Both factors make it easier for lighter people to ride too big sails on a specific board. Is it worth to do so ? For me, I would say: Yes, as on really light winds, I could manage to come in plane earlier with a too big sail !


Cheers Jogi
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Old 10th October 2008, 05:59 PM   #9
mim
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I am sorry but for you you seem to be the kind of guy having his opinion and not listening what the other peaople are trying to tell you.

I am not a leightweight but i really have to say that to combine the right board with an appropriate sail size is much better idea than trying to convince that 9qm is good on 100liters.

I have the feeling on my boards that the best suitable sailsize for the board is somewhere in 2/3 of the reange, that's when I feel really comfortable. I fact in light wind you probably have a bigger fin on your board to get you on a plane quickly, but it makes the board really unstable when speeded up.

Use your boards with whatever sail you want and we all will sailing with rigth combos.

Ciao Michal.
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Enjoy the wind when it is there...thats not exactly my case right now.
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Old 11th October 2008, 01:13 AM   #10
Per
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Interesting points and thoughts.
I'm 95 kgs (+100 dressed up). On my S-type 115 I could quite easily carry a 4.7 wave sail in close to 30 knots of wind and have fun. Few 65 kg sailors would find that combo useable. The board would simply get airborne due to their less weight. Anyway they could be comfortably on 80 litre boards and 4.0 sails and still have more reserve buoyancy.
I once tried my old Carve 145 with a 10.4 race sail (recommended max 9.0) and compared to my 9.4 sail I gained absolutely nothing but poor balance. The big question is wether a 65 kg guy would find that combo more useable than I did. I see no reason why he should. Actually my experience is that the recommended ranges for most boards are quite precise. We can move outside them (I read kevin Prichard telling he had a good result once with a 10.0 sail on a 97 litre slalom board!!), but I really don't belive that we, big or small get something really good from it, though it may be possible.
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