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Old 2nd January 2009, 06:49 PM   #1
Floyd
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Red face Formula Or Slalom in 20 knots ???

Good thread on Open Forum. Thought it might be interesting to pose question that has developed.

Assuming a windseed of 20 knots which kit would have better VMG (upwind)

Formula or Slalom ??

Any thoughts ???

(Assuming equal/profficient sailor ability)
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Old 3rd January 2009, 12:18 AM   #2
gre-969
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Red face

I do both Formula and Slalom, it's impossible with a slalom kit to beat the Formula in sailling up wind,
in down wind after 25k. maybe it's possible they arrive at the mark the same time but even there the ankel is deeper with Formula.
You should not forget that in higher wind speed we use Fins with less rake +4
and stiffer foil wich makes the board really fast with a lot of control.

www.fwa.gr
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Old 3rd January 2009, 04:15 AM   #3
davide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Floyd View Post
Good thread on Open Forum. Thought it might be interesting to pose question that has developed.

Assuming a windseed of 20 knots which kit would have better VMG (upwind)

Formula or Slalom ??

Any thoughts ???

(Assuming equal/profficient sailor ability)
Well .. better for what purpose? Racing? Is it even allowed by the rules to use a slalom in a Formula race? (the other way around is not)

But anyway, 20 real knots is a LOT of wind. I am 72Kg and around 20 knots I am on my Carbon Art 52W, 6.5 to 5.6, very well powered up and happy. In those conditions I occasionally drag race Formulas at Crissy and the CA seems to be faster downwind (broad reach), while upwind the angle is just a complete different story.

Is the CA actually 'faster" even downwind? Usually I am "only' doing 28-34 Knots of speed, but a capable rider can probably push the CA in the low 40s in the same conditions (my top is 38+). Can a Formula go up there? ... don't know, but the skill that it would require is at least an order of magnitude higher!

Last edited by davide; 3rd January 2009 at 04:30 AM.
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Old 3rd January 2009, 09:08 AM   #4
Ken
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Davide,

At the speeds you are hitting, you are correct that a formula board can't keep up on the same point of sail (broad reach). When GPSspeedsurfing.com kept a list of formula top speeds, very few achieved speeds over 30 knots (I think 34 was the top).

However, formula boards can run much deeper downwind than any slalom board and if on a dead downwind course, formula will get to the mark first. I have raced with most of the Crissy formula sailors at the US Open in Corpus Christi (all are better than me), so I know what they are capable of.

Ask them to pick a dead down wind course and race them some day. You will hit faster speeds, but you wont beat them to the mark.
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Old 3rd January 2009, 05:01 PM   #5
Floyd
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Ken
Yes I know exactly what VMG means and have done for over 40 years !! My sailing experience is approaching its half century !

The question wasnt VMG down wind it was VMG upwind in 20knots and in resultant water conditions expected ith 20knots. ?

Yes we all know Formula can outpoint Slalom.

In 2O knots slalom boards approach 40 knots.

There`s a reason Defi is always on on slalom kit.On those days there VMG is probably better.?
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Old 4th January 2009, 12:23 AM   #6
Ken
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Floyd,

Yes, "Formula can outpoint Slalom", but your question related to upwind VMG. And yes, on a upwind leg, Formula will have a better VMG than a slalom board, assuming the leg is directly upwind.

My above comments only related to Davide's comment that his CA was faster downwind than a formula board and I stated that it wasn't so if the mark was dead downwind.

I doubt that a slalom board can achieve 40 knots in a 20 knot wind in open water with the likely chop and swells. If "approach 40 knots" means 35 knots, I might buy it.

Fun discussion regardless.
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Old 4th January 2009, 02:22 AM   #7
Per
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Define slalom? When talking about formula we all probably think of a 100 cm wide board with 70 cm fin and monster sail on $$$ carbon rig.
When it comes to slalom both an iSonic 144 being 85 cm wide able to carry a 58 cm fin and a 60 cm wide board with a 32 cm fin can get going in 20 knots of wind. Pointing and speed can vary a lot within this spectrum. Some people claim that even the "old" Hypersonics were able to go near formula boards in pointing and downwind sailing, and, if the sea is rough, probably with a higher average speed through the water.
Anyway on round island races in my local area the quickest around a course this year was... a kiter...

;-) Per
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Old 4th January 2009, 03:36 AM   #8
Floyd
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Being more specific
a) A Formula 162 with corresponding rig/rider/fin
b) An Isonic 144 with same.

Which one first to windward mark in a steady/consistent 20knots?In choppy and then on flat water.
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Old 4th January 2009, 06:27 AM   #9
Ken
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Floyd,

Of course the formula board. While the iSonic will do well, it won't keep up with the formula. The 70 cm fin and 100 cm wide board makes the difference. For free sailing, the comparison is of little value, only while racing would the comparison of the two be of importance.

Choppy or flat water won't change the results.

If the iSonic was faster on a formula course, the top sailors would be racing them.
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Old 4th January 2009, 03:37 PM   #10
Aco
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Hi All.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gre-969 View Post
I do both Formula and Slalom, it's impossible with a slalom kit to beat the Formula in sailling up wind,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken View Post
Floyd,
Of course the formula board. While the iSonic will do well, it won't keep up with the formula. The 70 cm fin and 100 cm wide board makes the difference.
...
Choppy or flat water won't change the results.
I agree 100%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken View Post
If the iSonic was faster on a formula course, the top sailors would be racing them.
Excellent point!
I haven't thought about it, but Formula rules probably don't outrule isonics?

If this was the case and if ANY isonic would be faster than Formula in WW/LW races in ANY conditions, then sooner or later someone would come up with it and win a pro race?

Does anybody know of such a case in the recent history of Formula?
If not then I believe this is enough to close the argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davide View Post
Is it even allowed by the rules to use a slalom in a Formula race? (the other way around is not)
This is also an excellent point that suggests that in some conditions (low wind, wind shifts etc.) Formula would probably be faster than Slalom on a SLALOM COURSE (if not, why the restriction?).

The other way around it seems not to be the case (at leas according to the rules).

A fellow sailor has told me his experience about this:
he went to a local Slalom race with a Formula kit with 10m sail in cca 15-30 kts gusty conditions. Even in the relatively windy conditions he came out 6th of approx. 15-20 sailors (!). In the end they disqualified him for using a Formula board.

On the other hand I would be very interested to hear experiences with the other way around - has anybody ever tried/seen a Slalom board doing a Formula race?

Ken has already shared his eperience and it was in line with my expectations i.e.
"Slalom gets ass kicked all the way..."

With Best Wishes,
Aco

Last edited by Aco; 4th January 2009 at 04:17 PM.
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