Formula surfing and fins --> Why this way - Page 9

27th April 2009, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Remi said
All the board manufactures are agree to change something about the fins to keep people in the class that is not the case right now.

please expand on this Remi?
starboard probably represents 75% of the formula boards sold.
F2 has no team riders or direction.
Did you consult with Lorch and Mikes Lab?

27th April 2009, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Remi

Hi Unregisterd,
Nobody complain before the fin price was under 300€, now it's really not the same.

All the best

Uh yea, I remember alot of people complaining when fins were under under 300€ because we basically only had 1 manufacturer who couldn't produce the same fin twice.
If you wanted a good fin you had to buy 10, test them all and keep the 2 that worked.
Debocheit lost the formula market because they couldn't mass produce a decent product and keep up with the demand. Other people stepped in and developed better fins and charged more. What dont you get about that?

raffig · 27th April 2009, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

please expand on this Remi?
starboard probably represents 75% of the formula boards sold.
F2 has no team riders or direction.
Did you consult with Lorch and Mikes Lab?

Do not forget Gaastra Vapor, Exocet... Also excellent boards indeed!

27th April 2009, 08:35 PM

My 2ct:

1) Really good 2nd hand material on the market at acceptable prices (board: 600-900 euro, sails: 300-500 euro, fin: 150-250 euro ).

I myself am still racing 2007 and 2008 sails without any problem. Better to know your sails and get the max out of them. My board is also a 2008. The amount of racer that can test multiple boards and pick one is very, very limited and really the exception in the formula fleet. Most of us get one board and we make the best of it. If there are production variations, we try trim and counteract them.

2) comparison with bicycling world is really spot on. So for sure, FW is not for free, but when comparing to other sports, it is still acceptable.
3) Why differentiate always FW from the rest? Slalom set is equal price as formula set. Since you need more boards and sails, the total is even more expensive and I don't hear many people complaining here.

4) Regarding fins: A Kashy fin has grown due to high demand into a "virtual value" that is indeed far to expensive and it will remain that high as long as no other companies produce similar fins and racers beleive this. Don't forget that at a certain moment, the racers wanted to pay a 2nd value Kashy higher then the price of a new fin. People started to speculate, so Dave his prices went up to prevent this. . This is how it works and good for Dave that he takes the profit and not the guys speculating.

5) There are indeed a lot of fins out there and it is not that easy to find the fin that works best for you. People will buy "wrong" or less suited fins, but for the guy's that are really into racing, there is plenty of info on the web to find out what works and what not and try to go and find such a fin at a reasonable cost. It is more about the type of fin (rake, twist, flex, surface, profile) then just the name tagg. This fin searching and tuning is part of the FW game and is also one of those things that make it interesting.
FW is not only how strong you are or how tall, or not only the best board, but it is a cocktail of many things (men, machine and brains) working together.

6) To know what people talked about I have bought a Kashy (1300$) . I had a good working fin for my board (select from 2005 for low wind and a R20 for medium-high), but still I went for a Kashy. All my fins have similar bend curves in common (soft tips) and they all have similar rakes (after some reraking). My 3 fins give a very similar feeling on the water and when testing the Kashy, it felt good, but not upto a level that you would state that this is the dominant factor in winning or loosing.

Koen B-2

kvda · 2nd May 2009, 05:09 PM

Well spoken Koen B-2,

imho: a lot of people believe they can buy performance, even beyond a reasonable level. But most people forget that good performance is for 95 % about one major issue, being The Person itself. I can't understand guys (i'm talking about weekend racers!) who change their gear every year for the newest stuff, spending thousands of euro's, believing they will for certain become better surfers due to that new gear. They do not! In fact, I think they'd get better with staying on their 'old' gear for another year of two...

For me, I only change my stuff when it's broken, worn out or if it doesn't fit my expectations.

And there's another point: measurement, f.e. with GPS. While I'm not faster in nasty chop on a full on slalom (isonic 101) than with a futura 101 (GPS proven repeatedly), why change the futura for a slalom??? But on a regular base people on the beach suggest: go for an isonic, you will be faster.... people, and windsurfers in particular, are not rational. So 1500 kashy are being sold, and will ever be sold, but not to me.

2nd May 2009, 10:05 PM

The only piece of windsurfing equipment ever to appreciate in value!
I'd say that's a great investment.

3rd May 2009, 01:50 PM

Or are the crazy appreciations of these fin prices just yet another incarnation of the tulip mania ?

6th May 2009, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Or are the crazy appreciations of these fin prices just yet another incarnation of the tulip mania ?

Ah-ah-ah, I fully agree... Formula fins price escalation has all symptoms of a schizophrenia phenomenon and are becoming a new Tulip mania ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania )

6th May 2009, 08:46 AM

I don't see how this is Tulip-Mania over again.

This post is basically singling out one fin manufacturer; not the entire "fin market" in general.

Deboichet, Hurricane, VMG and others are STILL (and probably will be for some time to come) pricing their fins at <350 euros. There appear to be more independent fin manufacturers appearing this season and no doubt they will most like have their prices under this <350 mark to be competitive.

The last 2 seasons, the fins have been a problem because there was nothing comparable to Kashy on the market and so riders had no choice but to buy one. But this season there is so much choice.

At the first pro event this season in Poland when you see a decent number of the top guys using other brands of fins then you will wonder why this thread even started.

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27th April 2009, 08:35 PM	#84
Koen B-2 Guest Posts: n/a	My 2ct: 1) Really good 2nd hand material on the market at acceptable prices (board: 600-900 euro, sails: 300-500 euro, fin: 150-250 euro ). I myself am still racing 2007 and 2008 sails without any problem. Better to know your sails and get the max out of them. My board is also a 2008. The amount of racer that can test multiple boards and pick one is very, very limited and really the exception in the formula fleet. Most of us get one board and we make the best of it. If there are production variations, we try trim and counteract them. 2) comparison with bicycling world is really spot on. So for sure, FW is not for free, but when comparing to other sports, it is still acceptable. 3) Why differentiate always FW from the rest? Slalom set is equal price as formula set. Since you need more boards and sails, the total is even more expensive and I don't hear many people complaining here. 4) Regarding fins: A Kashy fin has grown due to high demand into a "virtual value" that is indeed far to expensive and it will remain that high as long as no other companies produce similar fins and racers beleive this. Don't forget that at a certain moment, the racers wanted to pay a 2nd value Kashy higher then the price of a new fin. People started to speculate, so Dave his prices went up to prevent this. . This is how it works and good for Dave that he takes the profit and not the guys speculating. 5) There are indeed a lot of fins out there and it is not that easy to find the fin that works best for you. People will buy "wrong" or less suited fins, but for the guy's that are really into racing, there is plenty of info on the web to find out what works and what not and try to go and find such a fin at a reasonable cost. It is more about the type of fin (rake, twist, flex, surface, profile) then just the name tagg. This fin searching and tuning is part of the FW game and is also one of those things that make it interesting. FW is not only how strong you are or how tall, or not only the best board, but it is a cocktail of many things (men, machine and brains) working together. 6) To know what people talked about I have bought a Kashy (1300$) . I had a good working fin for my board (select from 2005 for low wind and a R20 for medium-high), but still I went for a Kashy. All my fins have similar bend curves in common (soft tips) and they all have similar rakes (after some reraking). My 3 fins give a very similar feeling on the water and when testing the Kashy, it felt good, but not upto a level that you would state that this is the dominant factor in winning or loosing. Koen B-2

2nd May 2009, 05:09 PM	#85
kvda Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 173	Well spoken Koen B-2, imho: a lot of people believe they can buy performance, even beyond a reasonable level. But most people forget that good performance is for 95 % about one major issue, being The Person itself. I can't understand guys (i'm talking about weekend racers!) who change their gear every year for the newest stuff, spending thousands of euro's, believing they will for certain become better surfers due to that new gear. They do not! In fact, I think they'd get better with staying on their 'old' gear for another year of two... For me, I only change my stuff when it's broken, worn out or if it doesn't fit my expectations. And there's another point: measurement, f.e. with GPS. While I'm not faster in nasty chop on a full on slalom (isonic 101) than with a futura 101 (GPS proven repeatedly), why change the futura for a slalom??? But on a regular base people on the beach suggest: go for an isonic, you will be faster.... people, and windsurfers in particular, are not rational. So 1500 kashy are being sold, and will ever be sold, but not to me.

2nd May 2009, 10:05 PM	#86
Unregistered Guest Posts: n/a	The only piece of windsurfing equipment ever to appreciate in value! I'd say that's a great investment.

3rd May 2009, 01:50 PM	#87
Unregistered Guest Posts: n/a	Or are the crazy appreciations of these fin prices just yet another incarnation of the tulip mania ?

6th May 2009, 08:46 AM	#89
Sane Guest Posts: n/a	I don't see how this is Tulip-Mania over again. This post is basically singling out one fin manufacturer; not the entire "fin market" in general. Deboichet, Hurricane, VMG and others are STILL (and probably will be for some time to come) pricing their fins at <350 euros. There appear to be more independent fin manufacturers appearing this season and no doubt they will most like have their prices under this <350 mark to be competitive. The last 2 seasons, the fins have been a problem because there was nothing comparable to Kashy on the market and so riders had no choice but to buy one. But this season there is so much choice. At the first pro event this season in Poland when you see a decent number of the top guys using other brands of fins then you will wonder why this thread even started.