Old 11th December 2006, 10:18 PM   #1
Roly Gardner
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Default Starboard Carve 145 Set Up (noob)

Hi There,
I have just bought a carve 145 and am really looking forward to getting out on the water! Unfortunately I am very noobish! I weigh approx 12 stone and sail off the coast near Eastbourne. I have been learning to sail this year on a Hi Fly 175 ltr board with a 5.8 m2 sail.I can tack and jibe, but cannot beach or water start. Here are my queries and would be very grateful for some advice.

1-What difference does the size off fin make and how do I choose an appropriate one?
2-What size/type/make of sails do you think I need to get me going?
3-If I bought a 50/75% 460 carbon mast can I rig all size sails or do I need a smaler one for smaller sails?
4-Is there any difference in UJs or will any do the trick?
5-Can I rig a smaller sail on a larger boom or do I need several different sizes?
6-How do I know where to place the UJ ie front or back of the slot and what difference does this make?

Many Thanks for your advice.
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Old 12th December 2006, 09:00 AM   #2
Roger
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Default RE: Starboard Carve 145 Set Up (noob)

Hello Roly,
Welcome to the Starboard Windsurfing School!
Glad you f0und us.
OK, I'm guessing Eastbourne is in the UK, correct?
Are you sailing in a freshwater lake or in the sea?
This makes a little difference as the board has more floatation
per liter in salt water.
Now let's get down to some "parameters" so we are all speaking in the same terms.
12 Stone is 76.2 Kg. or 168 lbs.
That's not real "heavy" as far as windsurfers range of weight goes, so you are pretty much a "middle weight" sailor.
This is good as you will find that the Carve 145 may be a little less stable than whatever 175 liter board you've been learning on, especially if the 175 ltr is wider and has a wider more squared off tail.
So, let's discuss your questions one at a time:
1-What difference does the size off fin make and how do I choose an appropriate one?
For sails in the 6.0-8.5 m2 range, the stock fin (normally about a 48-52 cm freeride design fin) should work nicely.
If you use sails larger than 8.5 m2 you might want to upgrade the fin size (use a longer span (length) fin) to achieve a better balance between the sail size and the fin size.
If you choose to use smaller sails (< 6.0 m2) you may want to drop down to a 44-48 cm fin as this will "balance" better with smaller sails.
For a board as wide as the Carve 145, there is a limit as to how small a fin you can use as at some point you will be riding "on the fin" (not at your current skill level) and having the correct fin size can enhance the overall performance of your board. But, as sails sizes are changed, fin sizes also need to change to achieve a balance.
If you have very shallow water, or sea grass (weeds) you may need a shallower fin with more fore and aft surface area.
For simply shallow water, there are "wide chord fins" that give more area.
For weeds and sandbars, a good weed fin is both shallower, sheds any weeds that wrap around the leading edge (LE) of the fin, and provide a bit of a safety feature as they will "ride up" over sandbars, giving you a less abrupt "stop" and limiting any potential for damage to sailor/board/fin.

2-What size/type/make of sails do you think I need to get me going?

What size sails you need is very much "linked" to the amount of windspeed you are dealing with.
Board size can also be similarly "linked".
The more wind you have, the smaller the sail you need and pretty much the smaller the board you can sail efficiently.
I&#39;d think, at your weight, that a 7.5 m2 would be a good starting point if you have wind in the 12-16 knot range.
If your windspeeds are < 12 knots, you will need a larger sail to be able to plane.
If your windspeeds are > 15-16 knots, then your 7.5 m2 rig is going to start feeling a little large and a 6.5 m2 rig would be better for sure.
If the 5.8 m2 sail you&#39;ve been learning on is an older design, you can most likely get away with a 6.5 m2 rig.
Any rig larger than the 5.8 m2 you are accustomed to will seem large right a first, but you will quickly adjust your sailing technique, and I feel it&#39;s better here to have a sail that you can definitely "plane" on.

3-If I bought a 50/75% 460 carbon mast can I rig all size sails or do I need a smaller one for smaller sails?

Masts are categorized by both the length and the bend characteristics (IMCS/MCS).
Smaller sails use shorter and softer masts as this is what they have been designed on.
If you only want to get one mast, look for a good 75% min. carbon content 460 cm IMCS 24-26 mast as this should fit sails in the 6.0- 7.5 m2 range, and you will have a mast with the appropriate bend characteristics for the sails. This gets the most performance and value from both the sail and the mast.
Try to get the highest carbon content you can afford, in the "recommended best" size and brand of mast for the sails you are using. It should be printed right on the sail or the sail bag what the "best" mast length and bend characteristics (MCS/MCS numbers) are.

4-Is there any difference in UJs or will any do the trick?
While the "function" of the various types (rubber, polyurethane tendon,
mechanical) is pretty much the same, you will need a good solid joint that will ensure that your rig stays attached to your board.
UJ&#39;s is not a good place to save money. Get a good one. Your life could depend on it at some point.
I prefer the polyurethane tendon joints as they seem to last the longest are are very bombproof and secure.
Whether you use a Chinook (2 side release pins) or a Euro Pin (single metal pin with a locking device up inside the mast extension is completely up to you. I would check with other sailors in Eastbourne and see what they are using and get something similar.
You will for sure need a "mast extension" so you can set the extension to give the correct mast length for various sails.
Better to have a couple of these in different sizes so you can cover a wider range of sails without having a lot of very stiff mast extension up inside the bottom of the mast. On some sails, having too long an extension "stiffens" the bottom of the mast and can cause lower batten rotation problems. Also, if you have more than one, you&#39;ll have a "back up" that will get you back out on the water if something breaks oe gets left at home.

5-Can I rig a smaller sail on a larger boom or do I need several different sizes?
You should be able to find a boom that will cover the range from round 6.0 m2 up to 7.5 m2. For larger sails you will need a longer boom, and for smaller than 6.0 m2 you will need a shorter smaller boom.

6-How do I know where to place the UJ ie front or back of the slot and what difference does this make?
At first, I&#39;d suggest placing the mast foot in the center (fore and aft here) of the mast slot in the top of your board.
If the board doesn&#39;t balance well with the mast foot in the center (i.e. it tends to head upwind all the time, or downwind all the time) up can move the mast foot to compensate to some degree.
If the board always seems to sail upwind, move the mast foot forward a bit and see if this helps. If the board always seems to want to sail more downwind, move the mast foot back a little to compensate.
What your are doing here is applying the "pressure" (force) from the rig a bit more forward on the board (and further from the fin) to push the nose away from the wind.
If you move the mast foot back, you are putting less pressure on the nose of your board and applying that pressure closer to the fin.
There&#39;s quite a bit more to this, but at your level, perhaps the simple explanation is better.
Hope this helps,


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Old 12th December 2006, 04:13 PM   #3
Roly Gardner
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Default RE: Starboard Carve 145 Set Up (noob)

Roger

Many thanks for your comprehensive response! Really helpful and answered a lot of long standing questions that I have had.

By way of confirmation, Eastbourne is indeed in England , on the south coast. I sail in the sea. The coast here has a steep drop off so there are no issues with seaweed or sandbanks etc.

There are several additional queries that arise from your repies. Hope I am not boring you with these beginner type issues, but I am really keen to get to grips with the fundamentals so that I can progress!

1-Can you explain the concept of " Freeride " please.

2-Are there specific types of sail I should avoid or try to buy?

3-Have you any recommendations on make of sails or is this personal preference? I have been using a Tushingham sail to learn with.

Thank you for your continued help.

Roly
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Old 12th December 2006, 07:49 PM   #4
Roger
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Default RE: Starboard Carve 145 Set Up (noob)

Hi Roly,
Are you going to be sailing this winter?
Hope you have a very warm drysuit !
On to your questions:

1-Can you explain the concept of " Freeride " please.
"Free ride" boards and rigs are an "industry inspired" term for gear that&#39;s the next level up from entry level or beginner gear, but not specific to one discipline (like racing, slalom, or wave specific gear).
It&#39;s the gear that basically does everything and works in a wide variety of conditions for an even wider variety of sailor skills.

2-Are there specific types of sail I should avoid or try to buy?
I think the "free race" type sails are the best for sailors who want to advance quickly and are looking for good performance, easy rigging, and durability.
There are several "types" of sails but they fall into two basic designs based on whether or not they have camber inducers.
Camber inducers are small plastic "internal fairing" devices that fit on the front ends of the battens to "fair" the battens to the mast in a smooth and streamlined fashion so the flow around the front of the mast extends right onto the leeward (convex) side of the sail.
For your "freeride" progressing beginner type sailing you do not really need any cambers.
The other basic design is the camberless (no camber inducers) type and and the sail makers achieve (when your sail is fully loaded by the wind) very nearly the same "fairing" of the batten to mast interface by carefully tapering the battens and seam shaping in the luff sleeve.
So, my suggestion would be a couple of camless "free race" type sails
aboout 1.5-2.0 different in size to give you a good overall range.
For example if you get a 7.5 m2 as your first "larger" sail, look for a similar sail in 6.0-6.5 m2 for use in higher winds.

3-Have you any recommendations on make of sails or is this personal preference? I have been using a Tushingham sail to learn with.

Since you already have some experience with Tushingham, you may want to stay with that brand. I&#39;ve sailed them in years past (I use Sailworks currently as they sponsor the "A Taste of Windsurfing" tour and the Starboard/Sailworks Demo Tour that I do here in the USA) and they are really very good sails and you can get good service (not that you will ever need it) from Tushingham there in the UK.
I&#39;d suggest the Tush "T&#39;Bird T3 line as the most appropriate for you to advance both your sailing and rigging skills.
It&#39;s a "no-cam design that&#39;s very easy to rig, and has a huge tuning range (similar to the Sailworks Retro sails I&#39;m using).
Hope this helps,

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Old 13th December 2006, 03:10 PM   #5
Roly Gardner
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Default RE: Starboard Carve 145 Set Up (noob)

Roger

Once again thank you for your advice it really does help me get going. No Winter sailing for me I am afraid - way too cold at present and I am a bit chicken!

Cheers

Roly
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Old 16th December 2006, 08:23 PM   #6
Roger
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Default RE: Starboard Carve 145 Set Up (noob)

Hi Roly,
Probably a wise choice on the "winter sailing" there in the UK.
As a "newbie" you are most likely going to spend a bit of time
"in the water" vs "on the water" and in cold winter conditions,
that can really hurt the fun factor.
Give us a shout here on the forums when winter turns to spring
and you are back out on the water with your new Carve 145 and
a new sail or 2.
Happy Holidays,
R
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Old 18th December 2006, 05:32 PM   #7
Roly Gardner
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Default RE: Starboard Carve 145 Set Up (noob)

Thanks for the Christmas Cheer Roger. I expect you lucky buggers in the States can sail all year round!

Couple of further queries if I may.

1-If the luff measurement on a sail is say 457 can I rig this on a regular 460 mast or is it best to go for a 430 with the exact amount of mast extension. Are you really trying to get the exact mast height is what I am really trying to ask?

2-When a sail gives a max boom size what does this mean? As long as the max size is in the range of the boom&#39;s parameters is it compatible? Is the figure a maximum because the sail can be "tuned down" and therefore needs less out haul? Does the boom need to be adjusted to the exact length before rigging?

3-Is there an on line guide to rigging that you know of? AS you can tell I have very little idea!

Many Thanks and wish you a Merry Christmas.
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Old 19th December 2006, 01:10 AM   #8
Roger
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Default RE: Starboard Carve 145 Set Up (noob)

Hi Roly,
Here&#39;s some answers to your questions.
I&#39;ve pasted them in and will address them individually:

1-If the luff measurement on a sail is say 457 can I rig this on a regular 460 mast or is it best to go for a 430 with the exact amount of mast extension. Are you really trying to get the exact mast height is what I am really trying to ask?
You need to check the mast specifications on the sail (sail bag perhaps..?).
All windsurfing sails are "designed" on a specific mast.
The bend characteristics are different, for different length masts.
Most 430 cm masts have a 12% bend ratio and this translates to IMCS 21-23 (in the Indexed Mast Check System). If you want to know more about "IMCS" you can ccheck some sail/mast manufacturer&#39;s websites, or I can point you to some that give very detailed information on what the "Mast Check System" and "Indexed Mast Check System" are, and how mast bend characteristics are measured and specified using these "measurement systems".
Most 460 cm masts are MCS/IMCS 24-26, so they are a little stiffer.
If you want your sail to rig the way the sail designer intended it to rig, try to get a mast as close to the specifications printed on the bottom of the sail (or the sailbag).
When you purchase your sails (either new or used) ask who ever you buy them from to rig them up once so you can see how much extension they need and how much boom length, to get the correct downhaul tension to give the sail it&#39;s designed shape and tension.
On the "exact mast height" it depends on the sail and to some degree the sail designer.
Many sails rig right to the spec, but many others do not.
There are a couple of different ways that sail designeers use to develop the "correct luff length". Some rig the sail and when they have the tack pulley pulled right down into the sheaves at the bottom of the mast base, they use this length as the "spec.". But mast bases are sometimes a little longer and or the pulleys are placed a little higher or lower (or are a different diameter than what the sail designer used) so there can be as much as 5 cm (normally more like 2 cm) "tolerance" above and below the specified length, to get the sail tuned to perfection.
So, best way to "get it right" is to purchase the "recommended best mast" with each sail if you can afford it.
This way you do not have to "compromise" when rigging your sail for any mast incompatability.
If your new sail suggests a luff length of 457 cm, and recommends a 430 cm IMCS 21-23 mast, then get the 430 and put about 27-30 cm of mast bast extension under it to achieve the suggested 457 cm.
If the recommended luff length is 457 cm and the recommended best mast is a 46o cm IMCS 24-26, then you can rig the sail better on a 460 cm mast with zero extension and maybe a cm or 2 or extension on the adjustable top strap.
This can go either way, it all depends on what the sailmaker used when designing the sail.

2-When a sail gives a max boom size what does this mean? As long as the max size is in the range of the boom&#39;s parameters is it compatible? Is the figure a maximum because the sail can be "tuned down" and therefore needs less out haul? Does the boom need to be adjusted to the exact length before rigging?

Once again, not a question with a straight forward yes/no answer.
Here&#39;s the basic specs for a 6.0 m2 Sailworks Retro with a luff length very close to your example (457 cm).
Luff length (Median): 458 cm
Boom length (Median): 185 cm
Boom length (Max.): 190 cm
Recommended "Ideal" mast is a 430 cm 12% MCS Curve IMCS 21 - 25.
See this link for the entire range of &#39;06 Sailworks Retro&#39;s:http://www.sailworks.com/06/document...etro/specs.cfm
So, the first time I go to rig my new 6.0 m2 Retro I would approach the rigging process as follows:
1/ Roll the sail out on a flat smooth grassy surface (or on a "rigging carpet" if you must rig on pavement).
Get out a 430 cm IMCS 21-23 mast and assemble the two halves, using a wrap of vinyl electrical tape over the joint to seal out any water or sand.
Get out a mast extension that will adjust up to at least 32 cm.
Set the mast extension to 28 cm (or the nearest hole above 28 cm).
Insert the mast and mast base up the luff sleeve of the sail and ensure that it goes all the way to the top and seats correctly in the mast cap (or many sails have a pin in the top webbing that needs to seat in a socket in the top of the mast).
Then thread the downhaul line from the base up to the first sheave on the tack pulley, back down to the 1st base sheave, back up through the 2nd sheave on the tack pulley, back down through the 2nd base sheave, then through the 3rd sheave on the tack pulley and back down through the cleat assembly on the mast base.
Pull the line tight with your hands, then get out your downhaul crank and wind the tension into the sail.
Watch as the battens "pull back" along the mast as the tension applied by the bending of the mast begins to spread throughout your new sail.
For the Retro (and other RAF or No cam sails) the minimum downhaul is normally the point at which the batten just above the boom cutout in the luff sleeve draws back to the fore and aft centerline of the mast.
This makes the front of that batten pretty much "tangent" to the mast.
At the same time, if your sail has "tuning indicators" (up in the 2nd or 3rd panel down from the top of the sail) you would want to watch the "scallop" (due to leech looseness which turns into "twist" in the top of the ail when you are sailing) that develops in the panel with the tuning indicator and stop downhauling when the tip of the scallop (closest to the mast) extends in across the panel to the tuning indicator.
Here&#39;s a link that demonstrates this:http://www.sailworks.com/06/document...ro/rigging.cfm
OK, now the downhaul is all set to spec, the batten above the boom has pulled back the appropriate amount, and the looseness in the upper panel of the sail extends in to the tuning indicator.
Now you are ready to set the outhaul.
If you want the max. power the sail can deliver (for a particular downhaul tension) grab the outhaul line between your thumb and forefinger and pull the line out directly away from the end of the boom (this assumes the normal 2 part tackle between the clew fitting in the sail and pulleys in the end of the boom. (Line runs from the boom end, to the clew grommet, through the clew grommet, back around a pulley in the end of the boom, back forward to the clew grommet, and then back through the cleat in the boom end.).
When pulling the line between your thumb and forefinger, when the line begins to slip is "neutral" or "zero" outhaul.
Any tension you pull onto the clew of the sail beyond "neutral outhaul" is considered "positive outhaul". Anything less than neutral is considered "negative outhaul". (Some sails work best with a bit of negative outhaul, but most require some degree of positive outhaul.)
Try to purchase a boom that&#39;s only about 75% extended with your largest sail. Using a boom that&#39;s fully extended tends to make the boom significantly less "stiff".
So, for the example above (the 6.0 m2 Retro with 185-190 cm "boom length") you would want a boom that extends out to at least 210-220 cm.
The boom length can be adjusted to the recommended length before rigging, as a "starting point", but normally you can just open the boom up to a length that clears the clew of the sail as you will probably be "adjusting" the length after you get the sail fully downhauled and get the boom clamped to the mast.
Actually, when "tuning down" or decreasing the available power in a sail, you generally"add" more downhaul, and add more outhaul to reduce the depth of the foil.
Downhaul affects the draft (foil) of the entire sail when tuning.
Outhaul affects the draft in the lower portions (batten above the boom and below) of your sail.
So, to depower your sail you add downhaul and outhaul, to "Power Up"
your sail you reduce both downhaul and outhaul.

3-Is there an on line guide to rigging that you know of? AS you can tell I have very little idea!
Yes, most sailmakers have some sort of "rigging guide" for each type of sail they design.
Sailworks actually has a DVD you can buy that applies pretty much to all windsurfing sails. It&#39;s titled "Rigging 101".
Here&#39;s the link:
http://www.sailworks.com/06/category.cfm?category=18
Merry Christmas to you and all those you love,
R
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Old 19th December 2006, 05:33 PM   #9
Roly Gardner
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Default RE: Starboard Carve 145 Set Up (noob)

Roger

Great help, thank you. As I suspected there is a lot more to this topic than I first thought. It has stoppped me buying some second hand kit that I now think would have been all wrong. Best buy a rig package in the first instance I think, then I know I have compatible kit. I can always add to this as I go and work out how far I want to take the sport.

Cheers once again.

Roly
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Old 25th January 2007, 02:39 AM   #10
Phill104
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Default RE: Starboard Carve 145 Set Up (noob)

Hi Roly,

Just read your request for a rigging guide. If you go the Tushingham route all their new sails come with Peter Hart&#39;s Rig It Right DVD.

I&#39;ve got quite a few of these kicking around so if you want one email me through the website in my sig line and I&#39;ll pop one in the post to you.
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