Go Back   Starboard Forums > Free Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 23rd August 2016, 07:16 PM   #31
Jean-Marc
TEAM
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,475
Default

Max,

It's not a good idea to put a small sail on a Formula board if you want to emphasize early planing as possible. Reason is that a wide Formula + long fin has quite a large drag that needs to be overcome by guess what..., a large sail. You need a lot power in your sail to start and sustain planing in low wind range such as 8-15 knots. A 7.3 or an 8.8 sail size is for sure a bad match with a Formula for light wind sailing. A 9.5 sail size would be spot on for 10-15 knots with your 73 kg because the wind range is 9-14 knots for my 65 kg and 11-16 knots for a 85 kg pal. However, keep in mind that a 9.5 sail size is used as a strong wind sail in Formula Windsurfing.

If you want to stick with North sails, better get either a freerace 2014 S-Type 9.5 cam sail or a 2017 S-Type SL 9.3 sail, both with a 490 cm mast. Avoid choosing a too soft a mast (e.g., 460 + extender) as it will be good for the upper wind range, but not good at all for the low wind range.

If you really want to challenge light wind planing as low as 8 knots, better get an 11 m2 sail, however. Check this out if budget is limited : http://www.severnesails.com/race-sai...ula-experience

Cheers !

JM

Last edited by Jean-Marc; 23rd August 2016 at 07:20 PM.
Jean-Marc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd August 2016, 09:25 PM   #32
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Salut Jean-Marc,

Thanks for you answer. I knew I should consult a true formula guy before making any further purchases!

I have been told that twin can sail are actually more powerful to plane that true race sails with full cambers, and that an 8.8m twin cam such as the S-type can be equivalent to an 9.8 formula sail for planing.

I saw a couple of posts of people sawing they actually planed earlier with sails around 9 (vs bigger sail) as they say they can pump more efficiently.

You have a different opinion based on your experience , right ? Use a big and sail would definitely help plane earlier with a formula ?

What about light wind sailing with an ultrasonic . Would you recommend the 8.8 then ? And how the ultrasonic + 8.8 would compare with a F147 and an 11m sail ? Would the SB147 plane significantly earlier ? Marginally ? Or just be about equivalent.


To answer the comment I received about the windsup: I am under the impression you can do a few tricks without planing but not much. All the freestyle guys snob the light wind because they cannot plane with a small sail.

In my area, there is no wave to surf. I have a kayak that I enjoy doing once in a while, but the thrill is quite far than a planing session at windsurfing. SUP would be similar (without wave) I keep the kayak for glassy water days (8 knots or under) which there are plenty here. I may have great fun one day or two with a windsup in light wind, but I doubt the fun would last more than that... Unless I missed something ?
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2016, 11:09 AM   #33
Jean-Marc
TEAM
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,475
Default

Max,

I've been using big sails since 2000 (NP RX2 10.6, Severne Code Red2 11 and Reflex2 11 m2) with various boards (Ace 309, AHD DR 72/74/77/GT75/85/NT95, Hypersonic105, F159, iSonic 117W/127, UltraSonic 147, JP F100).

The limiting factor in light wind to start and sustain the planing as of 7 knots of wind is the size of the sail and size of the fin. For board width of 70-85 cm, a fin size of 54-55 cm is fine with 10.6-11 m2 sails. A fin size of 58-62 cm is fine with an UltraSonic while a 70 cm fin is fine on a Formula with my largest sails.

If I take a 9.5 sail (Severne racing Reflex, Overdrive freerace, North S-Type twin cam), I cannot start nor sustain planing in 7 knots of wind, no matter the board I use. Sail is simply too small to sustain the planing without frantic pumping. I need 9 knots of wind and if I take a Reflex3 8.6 sail, I need 10 knots of wind to sustain planing.
I don't find any difference between pumping a racing and a freerace sail, both are powerful as I want, but just take care to fine-tune them for low wind range by easing both downhaul and outhaul to make them baggy. Drag racing my iSonic 117W + Reflex3 8.6 + 44 cm fin against another iSonic 117W + Overdrive 8.6 + 45 cm fin (70 kg racer) has shown that we are on par when starting the planing but I'm faster than him on all counts (upwind, downwind, lower wind range, upper wind range).

I have a big advantage with my 65 kg body weight. Contrary to popular belief, I'm not planing earlier with a bigger board. An iSonic 127 (2012) feels 1 size larger than iSonic 117 Wide (2012), UltraSonic feels 2 sizes larger and a Formula feel 3 sizes larger underfoot. Swapping from iSonic 117 Wide + 11 m2 sail to a Formula JP 100 + NP 12.5 sail feels gigantic, super heavy, exhausting to pump on a plane and with an awful lots of drag. The Formula feels like a tanker that needs a ton of sail power to move. Frankly, I hated it. When I swapped the 12.5 for my 11 m2 sail, it was a bit better but the same huge amount of drag prevail to move the board forward on a plane. It does require a hell of energy. Jumping back to my beloved iSonic 117 Wide, it's a lot smaller, lively, lighter and quicker to pump and get moving forward, without being exhausted by frantic pumping.
It's really days and night. This is why I don't use a Formula with my 11 m2 sail but use an iSonic 117 Wide instead since 2012. Check this out for the low wind range : http://www.movescount.com/fr/moves/move115574063 and http://www.movescount.com/fr/moves/move114720101

I never tested the UltraSonic + 8.8 sail combo, so I cannot answer your question. A 85 kg pal has the UltraSonic Woody + North S-Type 9.5 (2014) sail + Deboichet R16 54/57/61 cm fins and a 105 kg pal has the UltraSonic Woody + Reflex 11 m2 sail + Deboichet R16 62 cm fin and both can start and sustain the planing as of 10-11 knots of wind when match racing while on my iSonic 117W + 8.6 sail combo. When I use their combo, I can plane as of 9 knots with the 9.5 sail and as of 7 knots with the 11 m2 sail.

The UltraSonic is certainly a good choice but the Formula + 11 m2 sail combo will be king in light wind providing you're skilled and fit enough to pump such a big combo. All of my racing friends have a Formula + 11-12.5 m2 sail combo to enjoy our light wind days on our swiss lakes. They all swear there is nothing better in light winds, except maybe a foiling moth or a kitefoil + cell kite in winds as low as 5 knots...

How large are your lakes in your area ? The big bonus of a Formula is that you can go anywhere upwind and downwind with ease, and you're sure to come back to the beach even with offshore and gusty winds.

Cheers !

JM

Last edited by Jean-Marc; 25th August 2016 at 10:38 AM.
Jean-Marc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2016, 04:43 PM   #34
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hello,

Oh you are from Geneva. Nice place, I have been there a few times, traveling to Vevey. I did wonder if there were windsurfers on lake Leman. Now I know!

The 11m, you can sail with it up to what wind before being overpowered, roughly ? 15 knots ?

I will enquire about the cost for a Severne FE 11.0 and corresponding mast. It appears that there is an 11.0 LW. LW = for light wind ? It is heavier than the 11.0 standard, so I am assuming LW is not for light weight.

I almost bought an isonic 112W 2012 last year ; you seem to love the board. On this board, you think I could use up to a 9.5 without problem ?
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2016, 09:05 PM   #35
joe_windsurfer
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Montréal (PQ) CANADA
Posts: 243
Default

Hey Jean-Marc

You certainly got to try MANY toys!!
Did you say you have used an 11 m² sail on an iS 117W
if so = WOW
OFO is ~53 cm and board rated to about 9.5
that's a heavy sail for such a board !!!

I LIKE your idea of suggesting a slalom board with somewhat bigger sails n fins
Have seen MAX go and he is a proficient sail pumper and sailor
You may have given him an option he had not considered before

You lightweights have got it made

At over 105 kilos my light wind toys are Mistral Equipe II XR and JP SLW92
maybe Max needs to try my AHD SL-2 132 with an 8.x sail

good winds
joe
__________________
joe windsurfer @ 105 kg
2012 JP SLW92, 2013 AHD SL-2 132, 2000 Fanatic BEE 124 LTD + Mistral Equipe II XR (Mistral SLE303 to beat up)
HSM Fire 6.3, NS Duke 6.9, TR-6 8.4, HSM SPF 8.5,TR4 10.0

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by joe_windsurfer; 24th August 2016 at 09:08 PM.
joe_windsurfer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2016, 12:01 AM   #36
Unregistered
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Joe,

What happened with the Isonic 117W ? You sold it ?
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2016, 10:01 AM   #37
Jean-Marc
TEAM
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,475
Default

Max,

The wind range of my Reflex2 11.0 m2 sail is 7-12 knots of constant wind for my 65 kg. Gust up to 13-14 knots are possible but only for a short time, otherwise I cannot hold the sail anymore. Sail & fin trim are key to enjoy such a wide wind range as explained below.

Here is a typical overpowered session : http://www.movescount.com/fr/moves/move111821980

If you select "Vitesse" in the Graph and move your mouse over the trace, you can watch the speed in km/h and actually follow the rider over the map. Higher speed were done when bearing away during a strong gust.

"Starboard iSonic 117 Wide + 55/54 cm fin + Severne Reflex2 11 m2 sail. WSW 5-12 knots, then picking up to 6-14 knots later on. Very gusty and very shifty, sometimes shifting NW (Joran).
Session #1 : sail trim for low wind (DH562/OH252/Select 55 cm fin). The sail was fine in the lowest wind puff but was getting way overpowered in the strongest +12 knots gusts whereas the Select 55 cm fin got me lots of tail walking in the upper wind range, so time to trim the sail back to the beach for high wind.
Session #2 sail trim for high wind (DH566/OH256/Deboichet R16SL 54 cm). This was absolutely perfect. Sail was very slippery and stayed bomb-proof stable in the strongest 14 knots gusts (both upwind and downwind) whereas the fin never got me tail walking. One of the best session this year with absolutely top notch performance today. Broke my best PR with the 11 m2 sail today at almost 26 knots Vmax, V5x10 sec = 24.2 knots, V500 22.7 knots."

DH = downhaul; OH = outhaul. I use a Severne SDM90 550 cm mast and an Enigma 210-260 carbon boom with this sail.

The main idea behind Formula Experience is that you can use a 75% carbon mast and an aluminum race boom with the FE 11.0 sail in order to lower the costs. Correct, LW = light wind.

The reason why I use an iSonic 117 W is the wide wind range for my light weight with 1 board only :
11 m2 sail : 7-12 knots
8.6 m2 sail : 10-15 knots
7.7 m2 sail : 11-18 knots
Above 18 knots, it's getting scary because the board is too wide and I don't have enough weight to simply keep that flying nose down in chop. I swap for an iSonic 53 speed + 32 cm fin + 7.7 sail.

I don't want a 9.5 m2 sail for me because there is enough wind range overlapping between the 11 and the 8.6 sail. Friends of ± 75 kg have used an iSonic 117 W + 48 cm fin + 9.5 m2 sail with great fun as of 9-10 knots of wind, so for your 72 kg, it should be no problems.

Do not be fooled by the difference of 3 knots of wind between 7 and 10. This is huge in fact, i.e., it's days and night between schlogging with a 9.5 sail and planing with an 11 sail.

Cheers !

JM
Jean-Marc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2016, 10:03 AM   #38
joe_windsurfer
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Montréal (PQ) CANADA
Posts: 243
Default

yes, i sold my SB iSonic 117W
i have gained some weight and had issues with the board
i am/was too heavy and NOT skilled enough ...

swapped it out for the AHD SL-2 132
a little easier to handle for me
one day back to the iS 117W !!!

and when i read stuff from Jean-Marc ...
it looks like i could stand to lose forty kilos !!!

and I am GLAD someone can GO on Formula in 7 knots !!!
__________________
joe windsurfer @ 105 kg
2012 JP SLW92, 2013 AHD SL-2 132, 2000 Fanatic BEE 124 LTD + Mistral Equipe II XR (Mistral SLE303 to beat up)
HSM Fire 6.3, NS Duke 6.9, TR-6 8.4, HSM SPF 8.5,TR4 10.0

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by joe_windsurfer; 25th August 2016 at 10:07 AM.
joe_windsurfer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2016, 10:26 AM   #39
Jean-Marc
TEAM
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,475
Default

Joe,

I sailed the Hypersonic 105 + 10.6/11 m2 sail for 10 years before switching to iSonic 117W in 2012. Since 4 years, I'm very happy with this board and sails combo for light and medium wind, so I sure don't want to change anything.

True volume is 120 L, so for my 65 kg, there is plenty of floatation reserve even if the 11 m2 rig weights about 12.75 kg. Total weight is 19.15 kg for gear + 65 kg rider + 5 kg wetsuit/harness/PFD/helmet = 90 kg, so that's about 30 L of reserve floatation. The Hypersonic 105 was 103 L true volume, so tacking the big 11 m2 sail was a bit tippy at the no-nose...

I know I'm a bit unconventional with my big sail and small board combo, but this is what a 186 cm x 85 kg friend has to say with his Tabou Manta FR 135 (85 cm wide slalom board) + Select S10 55 cm fin + Severne Reflex 11 m2 sail at our home spot :

"My first proper W-SW session on 11.0m Reflex.
Rigged the sail when there were 5 knots on the lake. Then just added some downhaul tension and found the sail really 'light' and managable.
It's the first time that I really planed all the time even in the big holes of 7-8 knots.
The gust were not as hard as usually, probably up to 18-19 knots. Most of the time the wind was in the 10-14 knot range.
Superb feeling on the Manta board, in a way better than with the 'smallish' 8.6 Reflex. Fully stacked and flying.
DH 565, OH 265, BH 150, HL medium, MB +1, fin 55 cm.
52 km, 24.81 knots".

Lightweights have an advantage in light winds, no questions, but more important, thinking outside of the box is sometimes helpful for some peoples, and sometimes not. So, a big 11 m2 sail does work on a 80-85 cm wide slalom board for recreational 65-85 kg rider, but certainly not for PWA riders.

For a heavy weight at 105 kg, this is a different story of course. For what I've wittnessed, a Formula + 12.5 sail, an UltraSonic + 11 m2, a windfoil + 9.5 sail or a windsup + 9 m2 sail are all valid options to have fun on the water.

Cheers !

JM

Last edited by Jean-Marc; 25th August 2016 at 11:01 AM.
Jean-Marc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2016, 06:24 PM   #40
mcross19
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 294
Default

Been reading this thread with some interest, Jean-Marc, are you saying that even though a 11m rig compared to a 9.5m rig will plane two knots earlier even if the total weight of the rig increases by around 3 kg's?

I'd be interested to know how would an 11m formula experience rig would compare to say a Reflex7 10.7?
__________________
2016 Severne Blade 4.0, 4.5, 5.0 & 5.5, 2012 Neil Pryde Firefly 5.3, 5.7 & 6.1, 2016 Severne NCX 7.0 & 8.0, 2014 Severne Overdrives 7.0, 7.8, 8.6 & 9.5

2017 Ultrakode 93, 2016 Flare 103L, 2015 isonic 107 & 120, 2016 AtomIQ 114 & 2014 Starboard Ultrasonic 147
mcross19 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
atom 160, formula, futura 154, light wind, ultrasonic

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wind SUP for light wind wave sailing Unregistered Free Forum 0 24th December 2012 03:19 PM
super light carbon 7`11" light wind wave board Unregistered Free Forum 1 15th December 2010 04:33 PM
Light wind sail? keyes1 Free Forum 15 13th October 2010 09:46 PM
RSR ou RSS...light wind bia French Forum 7 12th October 2008 06:06 AM
What light wind board ??? squiz53 Ask Our Team 2 2nd October 2007 03:01 PM


All times are GMT +7. The time now is 03:06 PM.