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Old 5th November 2007, 07:50 PM   #1
marek
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Default Tuning F-Type for chop/overpowered conditions + more questions

Hi Roger and all.

[1]
How would you recommend to tune my FT 148 for overpowered conditions and serious chop?
Where do I move the mastfoot? [with 7.5 sail]
What about the straps - right now I have them in the middle position but I'm starting to think to move them more outwards to get better upwind performance - but will it make the board more difficult to sail in rougher conditions?

I am 90kg, my smallest sail is 7.5 Gaastra GTX (I know how to tune it down).

[2]
I know it's not a board for this kind of conditions and I'm looking to get a used Carve 122. My major problem is chop and I'm not really into tricks/etc. I just want to cut through the chop and have a smooth, controlled and fast ride as I have on easier days with my FT. Do you think Carve 122 will be a good choice (too large possibly)? Maybe a different board?
The largest sail I'd like to use it with would be 7.5.

I'm also planing to get a 6.0 GTX (also 3 cams as I really like my 7.5) and then 5.5 Gaastra Remedy - does that sound like a reasonable plan?

[3]
Going upwind on Carve vs. FT.
I like working on my upwind techniques on my FT (like lifting the windward rail with my front foot and pressing across the fin with my back foot) and usually I'm slightly better then people on typical freeride gear, but I feel I'm still not quite there, especially comparing to the local formula folks (but I'm not sure what difference should I expect between formula and FT in upwind performance). I want to be unbeatable in terms of upwind ground!
Do you think buying a 70cm fin for my FT to be used with 10.0 sail makes sense? What kind of fin?

How about going upwind with Carve - what kind of technique will it require and generally, how does this board will feel comparing to my FT?

Thanks and I can't wait your answers,

-marek

P.S. I had a great session last Saturday - perfectly powered on my 10.0, going in both straps and passing by 90% of the folks who decided to rig smaller that day, ha!
I said that before, but what is really cool with this combo (FT+10.0) is that you can go fast on easy days (no chop) and it feels very safe (knock knock).
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Old 6th November 2007, 06:39 AM   #2
Roger
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Hi Marek,
I've pasted your questions in here and will answer them one at a time.
[1]
How would you recommend to tune my FT 148 for overpowered conditions and serious chop?
I'd recommend that you get a smaller fin, moved the mast foot back to free the board up, and use a rig that well powered, but not overpowered.
If you use a rig that's truly overpowered, you will get lifted and perhaps slammed and after one of these "yard sails" you will be so tentative about using the power you have available that you'll probably not sheet in enough to get good power and mast foot pressure.
Where do I move the mastfoot? [with 7.5 sail]
Like all sail sizes, keep moving it back until you have tailwalking type control issues, then move it back forward incrementally (2 cm at a time) until you just have a level of control that kinda scares you, but you can handle things without crashing.
This frees your board up to go it's fastest and allows it to cruise over the chop rather than slamming into it. Also, since you aren't racing, head off to take the chop at a better angle when ever you can. Chop coming in at about 45 deg. off the upwind bow just begs to be "hopped".

What about the straps - right now I have them in the middle position but I'm starting to think to move them more outwards to get better upwind performance - but will it make the board more difficult to sail in rougher conditions?
I am very surprised here............... I would have thought you had moved the footstraps all the way back and all the way outboard a very long time ago.
So, if you haven't moved them outboard and back all the way, what prevents you from doing so......?
What do you think is going to happen if you move the footstraps all the way back and outboard?
I'd really like to hear your answer on this. It's kinda pivotal to your progress.
What will happen with the footstraps all the way back and all the way outboard.....
my guess is that you will go faster and have significantly better control (better leverage to control fin attitude) than you can imagine is possible.

I am 90kg, my smallest sail is 7.5 Gaastra GTX (I know how to tune it down).

[2]
I know it's not a board for this kind of conditions and I'm looking to get a used Carve 122. My major problem is chop and I'm not really into tricks/etc. I just want to cut through the chop and have a smooth, controlled and fast ride as I have on easier days with my FT. Do you think Carve 122 will be a good choice (too large possibly)? Maybe a different board?
The largest sail I'd like to use it with would be 7.5.
Carve 122, Isonic 122, or Futura 122 would be excellent. If you want to "stretch" a little more, the 111 liter versions of all of these boards might be even better.

I'm also planing to get a 6.0 GTX (also 3 cams as I really like my 7.5) and then 5.5 Gaastra Remedy - does that sound like a reasonable plan?
Why 3 cambers in a 6.0 m2 sail?
Sounds like an OK plan, I'm just not sure what the cambers get you in sails smaller than 7.5 m2. Don't get me wrong, I have a set of small 3 and cam sails, but I only use them in certain conditions. The rest of the time I use Retros and Huckers and I go pretty darn fast.


[3]
Going upwind on Carve vs. FT.
I like working on my upwind techniques on my FT (like lifting the windward rail with my front foot and pressing across the fin with my back foot) and usually I'm slightly better then people on typical freeride gear, but I feel I'm still not quite there, especially comparing to the local formula folks (but I'm not sure what difference should I expect between formula and FT in upwind performance). I want to be unbeatable in terms of upwind ground!
So, what fin do you have on your FT-148 now, the stock Drake 56 cm?
An upgrade to around 62-65 cm would help with early planing and perhaps get you some better upwind performance, but going to a 70 cm is not going to get your FT-148 to have the upwind performance of a full on formula board.

Do you think buying a 70cm fin for my FT to be used with 10.0 sail makes sense? What kind of fin?
The big Drake Race fins are pretty good. Gorge Fin Co. and True Ames have some really
good race designs as well.

How about going upwind with Carve - what kind of technique will it require and generally, how does this board will feel comparing to my FT?
The Carve is not going to go upwind anywhere near as well as the FT-148.
Why....? It's a slalom board, with a much smaller fin. It will be faster and easier to control in chop than your FT-148, won't plane nearly as early, but it's whole concept is very different from the F-Type.

Thanks and I can't wait your answers,
OK, you've got some answers, now let's discuss them a bit.
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Old 6th November 2007, 05:04 PM   #3
marek
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Roger - thank you for your extensive answer, you are truly a great and patient teacher, like a Japanese master.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger View Post
I am very surprised here............... I would have thought you had moved the footstraps all the way back and all the way outboard a very long time ago.
Sorry I failed you Master!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger View Post
So, if you haven't moved them outboard and back all the way, what prevents you from doing so......?
What do you think is going to happen if you move the footstraps all the way back and outboard?
I'd really like to hear your answer on this. It's kinda pivotal to your progress.
OK, why I haven't moved them back/out - because I thought it will be more difficult to get into them (and I had problems with that until very recently), so I wanted to start with more neutral setup.
But last Saturday I felt that I can't get all the leverage across the board I'd like to, since when I was trying to apply more pressure my feet were starting to slide deeper and deeper into the straps whereas I'd like to use my heels more to push the board's rails (and I guess this is the intended use, judging from how the pads are positioned over the rails).
I believe if I move the footstraps all the way back and outboard I'll get:
- better leverage to push across the board and the fin to get better upwind performance
- I will be able to lighten the board even more and ride on the very last, flat section of the bottom of the board.

Problems I'm afraid of:
- the nose will want to fly away in overpowered conditions
- I will need better technique (more wind?) to get so far back/out on the board
- it will be more difficult to handle the board when in chop due to the more outward setting (think how wave boards have the straps inside the board)?
- the board will become less maneuverable when on plane and in the straps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger View Post
[2]
Carve 122, Isonic 122, or Futura 122 would be excellent. If you want to "stretch" a little more, the 111 liter versions of all of these boards might be even better.
OK, that sounds great. I think I'll narrow it down to Carve or Futura (I need some rest from "technical" boards ).
But can you help me with choosing the size? Do these board feel larger? I am 85-90kg and honestly I remember that when I tried a ~130l Fanatic Shark this year I felt it's waaay smaller then my FT (I guess it was also because of the FT being very wide and thus stable). I also tried even a smaller Shark (120?) and I remember I had troubles with pointing the nose to the direction I initially wanted to go - the board would just stale across the wind and wanted to point very high all the time (it was ok when it got on plane though). I had to use my front leg a lot to get it going - it felt like the mastfoot was to far backward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger View Post
I'm also planing to get a 6.0 GTX (also 3 cams as I really like my 7.5) and then 5.5 Gaastra Remedy - does that sound like a reasonable plan?
Why 3 cambers in a 6.0 m2 sail?
Well, because of my experience with my 7.5 - I had Gaastra Matrix (no cam) for a year and then sold it and and bought GTX, same size. I really like the difference - the stability, the power and I never feel my harness lines need to be moved around. Maybe it's because of my local conditions - very gusty. Also, some local folks complain they should have bought their ~6 sails with cambers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger View Post
[3]
Going upwind on Carve vs. FT.
[...]
So, what fin do you have on your FT-148 now, the stock Drake 56 cm?
An upgrade to around 62-65 cm would help with early planing and perhaps get you some better upwind performance, but going to a 70 cm is not going to get your FT-148 to have the upwind performance of a full on formula board.
Yes, I have 56cm stock fin now. Before jumping on a new fin I'll try the new footstrap setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger View Post
The Carve is not going to go upwind anywhere near as well as the FT-148.
Why....? It's a slalom board, with a much smaller fin. It will be faster and easier to control in chop than your FT-148, won't plane nearly as early, but it's whole concept is very different from the F-Type.
I understand, but can you give more details on what is the proper technique to go upwind with this board? Same thing with lifting the windward rail and pressing across the fin or you just use the shape of the bottom and tilt the board to the direction you want to go (not very efficient way at least on my FT as you loose speed and control)?
BTW: is it normal that my front foot gets pretty tired from lifting the rail up all the time?

Thanks,

-marek
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Old 7th November 2007, 10:08 AM   #4
Roger
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Hi Marek,
Let's deal with your reply one idea ata time:
"OK, why I haven't moved them back/out - because I thought it will be more difficult to get into them (and I had problems with that until very recently), so I wanted to start with more neutral setup."
I think getting into the footstraps is more a muscle memory (where the footstraps are on the board relative to where you stand) thing.
So, once you were in both straps, you probably could have moved them back and out with very little problems.

"But last Saturday I felt that I can't get all the leverage across the board I'd like to, since when I was trying to apply more pressure my feet were starting to slide deeper and deeper into the straps whereas I'd like to use my heels more to push the board's rails (and I guess this is the intended use, judging from how the pads are positioned over the rails)."
Yes, this is exactly the correct dynamic!

"I believe if I move the footstraps all the way back and outboard I'll get:
- better leverage to push across the board and the fin to get better upwind performance
- I will be able to lighten the board even more and ride on the very last, flat section of the bottom of the board."
Absolutely!

"Problems I'm afraid of:
- the nose will want to fly away in overpowered conditions"
Mast foot pressure will hold the nose down. Your weight is so far back and so far "cantilevered" off the board (and supported by the forces developed by the rig)
that you have to depend on good mast foot pressure to keep the board on the water.

- I will need better technique (more wind?) to get so far back/out on the board
- it will be more difficult to handle the board when in chop due to the more outward setting (think how wave boards have the straps inside the board)?
It may surprise you that when you get the footstraps all the way back and outboard your weight goes much more "on the rig" and alot less "on the board" so you can actually get going earlier with a little less wind.
- the board will become less maneuverable when on plane and in the straps
Actually, having better leverage to control the attitude (rail to rail) of the board and hence the fin as well will give you better maneuverability!

"But can you help me with choosing the size? Do these board feel larger? I am 85-90kg and honestly I remember that when I tried a ~130l Fanatic Shark this year I felt it's waaay smaller then my FT (I guess it was also because of the FT being very wide and thus stable). I also tried even a smaller Shark (120?) and I remember I had troubles with pointing the nose to the direction I initially wanted to go - the board would just stale across the wind and wanted to point very high all the time (it was ok when it got on plane though). I had to use my front leg a lot to get it going - it felt like the mastfoot was to far backward."
Getting used to a smaller narrower board is going to take a few changes in your technique but now you have the F Type pretty well wired and have a much better skil set to draw from.
111 liters or 122 liters both will work.
Remember, you aren't going to be taking this smaller board out until the wind in up around 14-16 knots with your 7.5 m2 rig.
When the wind gets over 16 knots might be time to change down to a 6.5 m2.
The chop starts getting hard to handle at around 15 knots, so you will be powered up on at least your 7.5 before you even need to think about the smaller board.
Try a couple of 110-115 liter boards and I think with your current skill set you will find they are much easier to sail.
As far as upwind, if you use a good vertical pointer or race type fin, going upwind will be similar to the F-Type in that you want to go upwind on "fin lift".
If you don'[t have the speed you can always simply tip the board upwind rail down and go upwind in slog mode on the rockerline.
As far as what boards "require" you to go upwind on the rocker line that would be soft railed wave boards with tiny fins or perhaps some of the freestyle boards again with tiny fins.

"Well, because of my experience with my 7.5 - I had Gaastra Matrix (no cam) for a year and then sold it and and bought GTX, same size. I really like the difference - the stability, the power and I never feel my harness lines need to be moved around. Maybe it's because of my local conditions - very gusty. Also, some local folks complain they should have bought their ~6 sails with cambers."

It really doesn't make any difference, but at some point you need to try out some better (than the Gaastra Matrix anyway) camless sails.
Under 7.5 they will have as much power, stability, and range as cambered sails unless you are super overpowered, or you want to set some sort of a speed record.
Otherwise, camless sails like the Retro, Hucker, Gator etc. are easier to rig, easier to sail and you won't be giving up much (if anything) to equivalent size cambered sails.

"Yes, I have 56cm stock fin now. Before jumping on a new fin I'll try the new footstrap setting."
Good idea!

"I understand, but can you give more details on what is the proper technique to go upwind with this board? Same thing with lifting the windward rail and pressing across the fin or you just use the shape of the bottom and tilt the board to the direction you want to go (not very efficient way at least on my FT as you loose speed and control)?
Use plan "A" (on the fin, lifting slightly with the front foot, pushing pretty hard across the top of the board with the back foot) when you are well powered up.
Use Plan "B" (Tipping the upwind rail down and going upwind on the rockerline/bottom shape in the board) when you are sub planing, or at any time you cannot get going well enough to sail upwind "on the fin".

BTW: is it normal that my front foot gets pretty tired from lifting the rail up all the time?
As soon as you get your footstraps out where you have full leverage, this will become less of a problem.
It should be no problem at all on a smaller 110-125 liter slalom/freeride board.
Hope this helps,
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Old 7th November 2007, 02:29 PM   #5
marek
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Thanks, you rock!

Can't wait to try the new footstrap setup (hopefully this year).

I'll see if I can get a hold on a 111 Carve and if I am able to handle it I'll take this one instead of 122.
My only concern is whether it won't be too tough to use it with 7.5 as this is the top of the board's 4.7-7.5 range (and I may not be getting the board and the whole new rig at the same time).

-marek
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Old 20th December 2007, 11:28 AM   #6
MA_Pete
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Marek:

Hey there. I felt the need to chime in here, as I came along a similar learning curve as you seem to be going on now. If you recall, I responded to one of your posts on rec.windsurfing as well, a few months ago.

I started shortboarding on an F-Type 158 in late 2005, and switched to the 148 mid-2006. Roger and the rest of the F-Type fans on the forum were a huge help.

I concur with Roger that you need to get in the outer straps asap, on your F-Type. I had trouble with the outer straps at first, but took a 4-day course with Tinho Dornellas in FL in the US in the spring of 2006, and learned to sail in the straps comfortably on Fanatic Shark 160 w/ 9.5 and Shark 145 with 8.5 and 7.5. I came back to the F-Type and the first session was still tough in the outer straps. I moved to the middle the next session, got comfortable with that, and then tried the outer straps the next session, and never looked back. In the outer straps is when that board "comes alive".

With regards to your next board, be careful not to go too small. Take it from someone who learned on an F-Type and had some challenges going smaller, go too small too fast and you will not be happy. I would say do not go down the path of the used Carve. I would hold out for the Futura, or alternatively the new GO which has the exact same shape as the Futura, and is much less expensive. The Futura/GO have a much flatter rocker and will drive off the fin more than the Carves (I have not sailed a Futura, but did own a 2006 iSonic 122 that I liked a lot, and iSonic DNA is in the Futura/GO). The Carves had a lot more rocker (I owned a 2006 Carve 122 - before the iSonic 122 - and did not care for it, in the context of the learning curve from F-Type), and have much more of a "small shortboard" feel than I would get the flatter rocker and wider Futura/GOs would have. The Carve would be even more extreme than the negative experience you describe on the Sharks (which BTW the smallest Shark is a 130L at 70 cm wide, a Carve 122 is 67 or 68 wide if I recall).

My recommendation, with all due respect to Roger, is to get a 2008 Go 133 for use with 6.0/7.5, or at smallest a 2008 GO 122. Or get the Futuras in the same sizes if you can afford it.

And get on those outside straps on the F-Type as soon as possible.

For what it is worth my skills have progressed a decent amount, I now have a pretty diverse quiver, a Starboard Formula Experience 160 that I am upgrading to a 2008 Apollo Formula over the winter, 85 and 76 cm wide Slalom boards of another brand, and 65 and 61 cm wide freeride boards of another brand, sails 9.8 down to 5.0. (Had the Futura been out at the time I upgraded, several of those might have been Futura's, maybe new iSonics in the larger sizes.)

Anyway, good luck with your progress and quiver expansion. I offer my input as your path seems to be similar to what I went through over the past few years.

-Pete
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Old 21st December 2007, 04:23 AM   #7
marek
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Thanks Pete, I read your post carefully.

I've recently moved straps o my FT all the way back/out, but the weather over here (Poland) won't let me try it anytime soon. I hope I'll not have too many problems with the new setup, as I got quite comfortable in both straps (middle positions) last time I was out (admittedly, the wind was low and the chop was small and I was on my 10.0 sail) and I even felt I need more leverage over the fin - thus the decision to move the straps. Can't wait to try the new setting.
I'm also thinking about testing the back foot in first, as the moment between getting the front and back foot always seems like praying for a catapult for me (any tips?).

As for the second board, I've already got Carve 111. Again, I haven't had a chance to try it yet, but I'm pretty excited about it. It also looks like a different board comparing to the Shark I tried; I think it's longer and won't round up on me that much. Also, I didn't have problems with Fanatic except when starting up, once on plane it was ok, I actually got into the straps for the first time in my life on this very board, and I got there right away. On F-type it took me months.
I really think I need a totally different (than the FT) board for the more serious conditions - I survived some pretty nuclear sessions on my FT and 7.5 and now I want a board that is more narrow and will cut through the chop.

-marek
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Old 21st December 2007, 05:29 AM   #8
MA_Pete
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Marek:

With regards to the F-Type, I wouldn't try the back foot first. Here is what I recommend: Try starting with the front foot in the strap *before* you are planing. You can even be hooked in if you want. Have the back foot over the centerline for keeping the board flat, and also when you push sideways on that back foot it will give you lift on the fin to help get the board planing. Bear off and weight the harness and if you have power you will get planing. A catapult occurs when the Center of Effort in the sail gets significantly windward of the centerline on the plane of the sail and/or significantly forward of the Center of Lateral Resistance. As you get on a plane the center of lateral resistance moves back, with much less of the board touching the water, and you have to sheet in to compensate with the apparent wind moving forward. So you head a little downwind to get powered up and get planing, but once that process starts you need to be ready to rake the sail back and sheet in. I am sure you know all this, but the point is a catapult occurs when you do not react properly to those rapid changes in the forces going on.

I suggest trying starting front foot in the strap and hooked in on a beam reach, rig pretty vertical, and go a bit downwind with a gust to power up. Focus on weighting the harness and pivoting the body to sheet in, as you rake the sail back as well, as you get on plane. Focus on feeling the balance of everything and getting solid mast base pressure, and making sure the COE of the sail doesn't get out of balance with the centerline on the plane of the sail, and with relationship to the CLR fore to aft. It sounds complex, but once I started thinking about it in that way, and learned to feel those forces, the catapults went away almost completely, very quickly. If you have weight in the harness and balanced power, getting the back foot in should not be scary. You can slide the back foot out to the rail and then lift it to step in, or even do a double pivot to slide it in from there. At that moment where you are about to pick it up, put some extra downforce on that boom and you will be able to pick that foot up and hold it there in the air for a couple of seconds if you want.

Good luck with that, once you get control with both feet in the straps, you will "tame that beast" and love the F-Type. My favorite setup was with an 8.5 with the 148. With 7.5, the sea state starts to get such that there is enough chop you want to get off that thing quickly (if you want to keep your fillings in your teeth), unless you are lucky like Roger to sail on the sound side in Hatteras where you can get good winds and flat water.

I loved learning on the F-Type, but now I think it is kind of a weird "tweener" board that would no longer fit in my quiver. If I want wide for early planing in light winds and flat water, I go to the extreme of a Formula board (and soon the ultimate extreme of the Apollo) with a wider tail and a longer fin. From there I jump to 75-85 cm slalom boards, which handle chop a lot better and are a little more lively to sail (and jibe) than an F-Type, and still plane pretty early. Of course I am lucky enough to have committed myself to a 5 board quiver, so for me that makes sense, for others aiming for a 2-3 board quiver, maybe not.

As for your Carve, it is actually a bit shorter than the Sharks, but that's okay, you will get used to it. Tip for the Carve for you (I had the 122), get it planing solid before trying to weight that back foot, it needs good speed and waterflow over the fin before trying to get in that backstrap, or you will quickly sink the tail and/or spin out. And yes, you will round up and go sideways if you have you weight in the wrong place. You need to be tight on the centerline, front foot forward, and body twisted with sail raked much more forward that schlogging on an F-Type. The geometry and physics are much different, that is why I jumped in on this thread here with you, I went through the same challenges coming from learning on the F-Type trying to get to smaller boards. But I can happily say I am now easily planing on the 61 cm wide 95L freeride, with 5.0 and 5.5 sails. My strength is still the bigger wider slaloms and Formulas with sails 6.5 to 10.0, as those are the conditions I sail in the most, but now at least when it is ripping I can get out there, have some fun, and try to continue to improve the skills needed for those windier conditions with smaller gear.

Best of luck!

-Pete
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Old 21st December 2007, 06:36 PM   #9
Joe
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Pete - how do like the formula in chop compared to the f type?
I've read somewhere else where a poster said they though the formula (160?) was easier to sail in chop than a f type? Any thoughts on this?

Also - have you sailed the apollo yet? From what I have read alot of posters seem to think that a 161 will plane almost as early but is a much better board in more wind.

I have to agree with you about the Calema clinics - it is a great way to learn how to sail efficiently - I just wish I could remember all of it...

Regards,
Joe
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Old 21st December 2007, 08:41 PM   #10
MA_Pete
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Joe:

I definitely think a Formula can handle chop a little better. In my opinion you can fly it on the fin and the leeward section of the rail a lot more easily, flying over the chop, both upwind and downwind. The F-Type is less of a handful fully powered / overpowered on a reach. I think the F-Type was a great board for me to progress on as an intermediate, but the Formula is a lot more fun now for me.

I have not sailed the Apollo yet. The racers seem to dismiss at as a slight edge in planing with less speed and control at higher winds, which I can see from a racing perspective. But for me I want earliest possible planing, and I will be off the Formula and onto an 85 cm slalom once the wind is consistently in the low to mid teens, so Apollo seems like it would be best for me. According the some of the reviews (Windsurfing Mag, Roger here) it definitely planes up earlier and more easily than a regular Formula, with the longer planing flat and the longer fin. I plan to also use it with a 70 cm Deb R13 +8 Soft, and I bet with that and the longer planing flat it planes earlier. It arrives late January, will get out on it in the spring and report back...

-Pete
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