Old 17th January 2010, 09:32 PM   #1
Tmac
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Default Fin for Futura

No replay so far..
I wonder did not explained clear enough or nobody have the answers or wrong forum?






Hi

Flatwater condition.
Windrange 10 -30 knots.Not really gusty.
180 cm 80 kg sailor
Board : F 111 / F133 Sail: NP V6 6,5 m/ NP Hellcat 7,2 / NP V8 8,5 m.

Need advice for fin selection.
I have regular Drake fins and been told if want to increase performance in terms of speed need specialised fins for that purpose.

There is many fin brand/type.Select;Deboichet.Tectonics,Maui etc.A pro windsurfer recommended me strongly Tectonics Talon fins.

1-Are Talon ideal type of gear for my equipment or other type of tectonics or any other kind fin suits most?

2-What fin length should be for above board and sails as I am planning to buy 2 fins for each board?

For the time being I am stuck about 30 knots max .It is the limit I could not pass beyond last season.I expect with Futura I could achieve 33-34 knots at least.I was using F111 with Drake 38 fin.Maybe need a smaller one?

3-Last confusing topic.Read somewhere that on same conditions using no cam instead od cam sail you have to rig 1-1,2 m. smaller in order to sail without owerpowered.E.g. sailnig V8 7,5 m comfortably and if you want switch nocam ( NP Solo) you have to use 6/ 6,5 m.
I know cam sails are more forgiving during gust and covers a bigger windrange without changind the sail vs nocamsails. but is the difference really such big?

I have a Hellcat 7,2.In that sense what is the equivalent cam sail of my 7,2?
V8 7,5/8.0/ 8,5 ?Could not get any satisfactory answer experienced windsurfer around.
Hoping to get some valubale information from fhe forum.


thanks in advance
Tmac

Last edited by Tmac; 20th January 2010 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 21st January 2010, 09:57 PM   #2
Ken
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Tmac,

I will let Roger respond to most of your questions (I saw your comment on the school forum).

Regarding your first question on fins and top speeds, here is what I have found. I started using a GPS four years ago and had high hopes of reaching speeds well beyond what I have been able to achieve. Here are a few things that have kept me from going over 31 knots (my top speed).

Board size - I have an iSonic 111 (31.02 knots) and a Hifly Move 105 (30.30 knots). I feel that both boards are too large and wide for me to go much faster.

Body weight - I weigh 79 kg and feel that if I was heavier, I could carry a larger sail.

Water conditions - You need a long streatch of flat water (1/2-1K) with little wind disruption. Where I sail, at best I may get 10 seconds of good flat water before I hit a wind shadow or run into the shore line. Even though I have had two good opportunities to make speed runs in ideal conditions at another location, I still hit the wall at 30 knots with the same two boards.

Strong, steady wind - to break 30 knots on your board, you probably need at least 23-26 plus knots of wind.

Sails - I have Maui Sails TR race sails, so there is no handicap here. I think any top of the line race sail will be your best bet. Your sails are good, but may limit your top speed just a bit. You have to be on the edge of control to achieve your best and your sails will be slightly less controllable at the top end compared to full on race sails. My top speed was on the iS 111 and a Maui Sails TR4 6.6 in 25 knots of wind.

Fins - Something small without a lot of foil. The Drake fins that came with my iS 111 are good for speed, but tend to spin out often so I bought a Tectonics Tomcat. Probably not as fast as the Drakes, but no spin out and great control. Fins no doubt play a role in top speeds, but I think the other issues mentioned above are more critical.

Skill - I don't know how much my skill plays into all of the above, but I have been windsurfing for 26 years.

I am very impressed by the speeds achieved by so many sailors and wish that I could do better. GPS-speedsurfing.com list 500 sailors achieving 34.33 knots or faster, and that's the average of 5 ten second runs. The last guy listed (500) at 34.33 knots hit a top speed of 35.94 knots during one of his 5 runs. Take a sampling (click on the name) of several of the 500 top speeds runs and check out the details. This will give you an idea of what it takes to go fast.

Keep trying to go faster, hopefully you will find what works for you.
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Formula 160; iSonic 111; HiFly Move 105; Tiga 263; '85 Mistral Superlight.
Maui Sails TR 11.0; 9.2; 8.4; 7.6; 6.6; Maui Sails Switch 6.0; 5.2; Maui Sails Global 4.5; 4.0.
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Old 21st January 2010, 11:42 PM   #3
Lessacher
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Hallo Tmac! If you look in GPS-Speedsurfing com. there can you read what they use:
boards,fins,sails....... The fastest fins are at the moment asymm. fins for one way.
But only for one way. I work doubleasymm.fins for both tacks. They laughed over 20
years over my fins, but now made Thomas Döblin some month ago 50 knots topspeed.
Concaves and cut out at the base. 100% carbon. Worked in moulds. Rake 30°.
Between upright 15° and weedfin 45°. He used 22cm , the first time.
22cm is 28cm long. For 111 is 25-28 okay. 25 is 31cm long. 28cm is 35cmlong.
28cm should be better. For 133 is 32-35cm okay. 32 is 39cmlong 35 is 43cm
long. 35cm should be better. The fins have no spin outs.
Please look: www.designlessacher com. Rake 30° is not on the homepage,but if you
mail me, I send you pics. Wolfgang
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Old 22nd January 2010, 06:08 AM   #4
Remi
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Hi Tmac,

Here you have a good base for your answer, the C3 Venon give very good results with the Futura shape.

Hope this help.

All the best
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Can answer if you have any questions on this following boards :

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Futura 93, 101, 111, 121, 131 & 141.
iSonic 80, 87, 90, 97, 107, 110, 117 & 130
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UltraSonic 147
Formula Experience One Design
Phantom Race 377 & 377 L / 320
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Phantom 295 L :
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Formula 167 :
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Old 23rd January 2010, 06:49 AM   #5
Tmac
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Hi Ken

Thanks valuable contrubution.For sure I underestimated board size you are right.I am not the racer or speedsurfer type but still wants to get the max from my equipment when having good conditions.I am hearing about close 40 knots speed done with Futura
That made me think why not reaching 32-33 knots.
I was able to reach 30 knots with F111 and hellcat 7,2.

Speed ıs one purpose and not the most important one I want to gather ideal combo.So,I have sail,board the missing point is fin.Maybe need to add a smaller board like F93 would be a wise decision.

thanks again
Tmac
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Old 23rd January 2010, 11:18 AM   #6
Roger
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Hi Tmac,
OK, looks like you got some responses.
Here's your original post, I'll try to work on each section individually:
I have regular Drake fins and been told if want to increase performance in terms of speed need specialised fins for that purpose.

There is many fin brand/type. Select;Deboichet.Tectonics,Maui etc.A pro windsurfer recommended me strongly Tectonics Talon fins.

1-Are Talon ideal type of gear for my equipment or other type of tectonics or any other kind fin suits most?
Tectonics are certainly good, and the Talon is just one model.
http://www.tectonicsmaui.com/
Looks like the Talon is Dennis Partons "latest and greatest" but you need to get on a waiting list to get one.
Since you are not racing slalom at a pro level, I think some of the other Tectonics fins might work almost as well, without the wait.
Try one of Wolfgang Lessachers 15 deg. LE fins. If they are anything like his Duo assymetrical weed fins, they will be fast and you probably won't be able to spin one out.

2-What fin length should be for above board and sails as I am planning to buy 2 fins for each board?
If you plan to use the stock fins in your quiver of fins, I would look for a fin 4 cm smaller and 4 cm larger for each board.
Smaller is to go fast in windy conditions, larger is to get planing earlier when the stock fin won't quite get it done.

For the time being I am stuck about 30 knots max .It is the limit I could not pass beyond last season.I expect with Futura I could achieve 33-34 knots at least.I was using F111 with Drake 38 fin.Maybe need a smaller one?
30 knots on a 38 cm fin is pretty darn fast. I'd try a 34 and 32 on the same board with half to a meter smaller rig.

3-Last confusing topic.Read somewhere that on same conditions using no cam instead od cam sail you have to rig 1-1,2 m. smaller in order to sail without owerpowered.E.g. sailnig V8 7,5 m comfortably and if you want switch nocam ( NP Solo) you have to use 6/ 6,5 m.
This "ratio" (1-1.2 m2 smaller) does not make sense to me.
I agree with Ken, a well designed no cam (like the Sailworks Retro) can be sailed pretty much size for size (this has been proven many times on race courses in the Gorge).
Other brands may differ, and a good 4 cam top of the line "no expense spared" race sail will definitely be a little more stable and user friendly in really overpowering conditions or when you want to go super fast.

I know cam sails are more forgiving during gust and covers a bigger windrange without changing the sail vs nocamsails. but is the difference really such big?

The wind range is actually better overall on a good no-cam like the Retro. It has a wider tuning range and can give you much better low end power that a dedicated race sail because it can be tuned for a greater range of conditions without taking away from the top end performance.

I have a Hellcat 7,2.In that sense what is the equivalent cam sail of my 7,2?
V8 7,5/8.0/ 8,5 ?Could not get any satisfactory answer experienced windsurfer around.

No one can really answer that question...... It totally depends on how you rig the sail.
To the specs, on the right mast, outside the specs to get more top or bottom end.
What ever you do, the range is not going to be much more than 7.0-7.5 equivalent.
Hope this helps,
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